Qs about inconsistencies: Aging, eyes-closed/Hinman, etc.

[JK Newbie]

Youko has no special powers - never has -

The anime alludes in 2 instances to Youko not being an ordinary Taika or Emperor. When she first arrives she dreams of her skin peeling away changing her appearance to black skin with red markings and claws - until then and since, her dreams have been truthful foreshadowing. When in En at the school, the Kaikyaku instructor says (even after he knew Keiki had pledged to her) that newly arrived Taika do not know the language. He suggested she must be a wizard or sennin as well. Is that an anime continuity error?
As to the sea dragon, saying it's imagination to suggest any more than artistic liscense in its appearances sounds like another anime continuity error. Us poor anime-only watchers get confused since the anime is a major reshuffling of the novels and visuals have to make up for the lack of screen time available for all the novel text. So there.

[DrFox]

This is my first post, so go easy anyone!

I think the reason why Yoko ans her himan are not attacked is because she is already the empress, meaning she is somohow special to Tentei's eyes.

It is my understand the serpent is the one that holds the kingdom as explained by one of the Shirei plays early in the series.

Anyway, it is just a thought.

[shadowsevalle]

I agree w/your interpretation, Dr. Fox; that's how I saw it as well.

[MegaDuck]

When she first arrives she dreams of her skin peeling away changing her appearance to black skin with red markings and claws

They stated that Taika's Apperance changed and i got the impression thet that sceane with here changing was just the shell being removed and a little influance from the water sword.

until then and since, her dreams have been truthful foreshadowing.

I think that is the water sword thing and the Monkey guy. Azareal? When the water sword has a master that is uncontrolled or off balance (Re Youko in the begining and middle) Then it starts sparking randomly and showing random things that the person is thinking about. Past or preasent. Notice her dreams never really show the future they only show the now and what she fears the future will be. (Re her lying on the bed dying)

When in En at the school, the Kaikyaku instructor says (even after he knew Keiki had pledged to her) that newly arrived Taika do not know the language. He suggested she must be a wizard or sennin as well. Is that an anime continuity error?

Are you sure that is after he knew he pledged her? What i read about it is that youko was human untill about 10 min into the anime where keiki askes her to accept. As soon as she accepts she signs her own imortallity contract and becomes the empress and imortal. She has not been crowned yet but she gets all the benifits of immortality such as not aging and speaking all languege.

I have no idea about the sea dragon but i thought that she was just protected by Tentai being the empress and all.

Youko has no special powers - never has - no emperor does (it's not X-men).

I happen to disagree. The Emperors get do get a few powers namely immortality and language. I also thought that they where almost invulnarable to everything but getting their heads chopped off. You could through youko in a furnace, drop her off the top of those really tall mountins, or stab her through the heart with a kitchen knife and she would survive and suffer no permanant damage.

In the seconed epesoide she is knocked of the flying youma thing and plummets 5,000 feet or so wakes up with nothing but nothing but scratchs a few bruises and a hurt ankle. The Ankle then heals at a increadably rate.

I always put this down to the fact that she is immortal at the time and literally can not be killed. (I also assume she will never get sick again, well till tentei punishes her)

[garamir]

Are you sure that is after he knew he pledged her? What i read about it is that youko was human untill about 10 min into the anime where keiki askes her to accept. As soon as she accepts she signs her own imortallity contract and becomes the empress and imortal. She has not been crowned yet but she gets all the benifits of immortality such as not aging and speaking all languege.

I'm not sure where you're reading this, but I believe it's incorrect. Youko is a taika, so she's a person of the 12k world trapped in the body of a person in our world. Her old appearance is just a shell. Keep in mind that her appearance didn't change until she actually passed through the sea into Tokoyo. Also, she had no contract of immortality until the formal coronation ceremony. She was recognized by Keiki as the empress, but that didn't grant her any of the benefits of her station until they were made formal. This is confirmed in the dialogue during her coronation as well as during the flashback to En-ou's.

Youko was able to speak the language because she had the help of her Hinman. However, if there was a scene I'm forgetting where she could speak without the Hinman's help, then she does seem to be more than just an ordinary Taika if that scene's translation (and the teacher's information) was correct.

I happen to disagree. The Emperors get do get a few powers namely immortality and language. I also thought that they where almost invulnarable to everything but getting their heads chopped off.

The emperors have no innate special powers. The contract of immortality is established between them and Tentei at their coronation. The ability to speak different languages also comes from that contract, just like the sages can.

In the seconed epesoide she is knocked of the flying youma thing and plummets 5,000 feet or so wakes up with nothing but nothing but scratchs a few bruises and a hurt ankle. The Ankle then heals at a increadably rate.

This is an interesting point, but wasn't the power of the sword helping her heal? The fall itself... I don't know if that could be explained by just the sword's power.

[Codex]

Youko was able to speak the language because she had the help of her Hinman.

My understanding was that Youko was able to understand the language because she is a Taika.

[MegaDuck]

I'm not sure where you're reading this

I am sorry that is a typo in my part, It is supposed to say the way i am reading into this, or my impression of this is.

She was recognized by Keiki as the empress, but that didn't grant her any of the benefits of her station until they were made formal. This is confirmed in the dialogue during her coronation as well as during the flashback to En-ou's.

Hmmm there are three parts to this i think. The Pledge, The Calling, The Coronation. The Pledge is what Keiki does in ep 1. The Calling is when they go up to the top of mount hou after the taiki arc and the Coronation is she being crowned.

The Coronation i think is a political event. Saying to the people in general here is your emperor and making sure everyone knows it.

The difference in opinion is in the pledge and the calling. I understand the arguement that she gets the immortality at the calling but i am also thinking about what En-ou tells her.

He and Enki tell her that she could go back to japan then but then keiki would sicken and die and that she would fall over and die to. I got the feeling from that thet she is already connected to keiki and misdeeds on her part will result in their mutual deaths.

With respect to the injury by the sword suigimoto was injured and even with the jewel she was not regenerating nearly as fast as youko. Youko mentions this to someone how she seems to heal really fast.

You are right though the status of emporor gives the power not the person.

[DrFox]

Replying to the recent treads from Megaduck, Garamir and others, here is what I think:

1) Yoko understands the language because she is originaly from 12K (Taika), meaning it is her natural language, even if never spoken before.

2) She made the contract with Keiki while still in Japan, at the school, when she replied "I Accept".

3) She was already an immortal. Sugimoto stabed her with the Yoko's sword and was not able to kill her. It was than that the Kou emperor handed her another touki, saying something like this: "You can not kill her with that sword. Use this one...

4) The imortality contract was "re-confirmed upon her ascending to Mt. Hou for receiving the calling for what she should do as Empress to be a good ruler. Remember that Tai-ou received a different call, meaning Tentei will give words that are meaningfull to Yoko only. Other emperors will get other instructions, as if Tentei knows which is good for each of them.

Have a nice day!

[Neko-chan]

3) She was already an immortal. Sugimoto stabed her with the Yoko's sword and was not able to kill her. It was than that the Kou emperor handed her another touki, saying something like this: "You can not kill her with that sword. Use this one.

Of course nobody can but the true emperor/empress can use the sword.
Keiki explaind it in the first ep.then it got explained again from En-ou...the only way that Sugimoto could even hold the sword was because the shed's Spirit disapear,bevor that sugimoto could'nt even draw it!
Besides that En-ou also said he could wield it,but he can not kill anything with it,only the true emperor can kill with it.(just rewatch ep 10)

[DrFox]

Dear Neko-Chan,

Yes, you are correct, but I was just trying to prove that Yoko was already an immortal by that time.

It doesn't matter if Sugimoto or En-ou were both unable to drawn the sword out. The fact is that Sugimoto hit on Yoko heavy but did not harm her for two reasons: she was immortal already and because her own sword would never kill its master.

The second point on proving Yoko's immortality was the fact Kou-ou, handed Sugimoto a touki, which is the only weapon able to hurt immortals.

I think that is all.

[oion]

Dear Neko-Chan,

Yes, you are correct, but I was just trying to prove that Yoko was already an immortal by that time.

It doesn't matter if Sugimoto or En-ou were both unable to drawn the sword out. The fact is that Sugimoto hit on Yoko heavy but did not harm her for two reasons: she was immortal already and because her own sword would never kill its master.

The second point on proving Yoko's immortality was the fact Kou-ou, handed Sugimoto a touki, which is the only weapon able to hurt immortals.

I think that is all.

I disagree; from the references to the Immortality Register, I think Tentei conveys immortality at that point only during the ascension. As for the sword not harming her, it's an ownership issue IMO. She was chosen, the sword cannot harm her; you can't use both reasons of "immortality" and "never harm its master" - that type of logic ends up negating itself: It doesn't prove her immortality at all. Sugimoto is unable to use it, period. It would be like saying the common cold is caused by cold weather and a virus; it's actually only caused by a virus, but you can't PROVE it either way until you remove more variables. En Ou's comment that only the true emperor can ever use the sword supports the ownership argument far better than an immortality one.

Also, nothing special happened between the time that Rakushun saved her and when Youko discovered her title in ep9 - if she was immortal at that point, there would be no need for Rakushun to save her at all. When did Kou-Ou give Sugimoto a touki? During their last fight? I don't recall it being named as such. Also, touki may be able to harm immortals, but they obviously can harm mortals. There may be a far more practical reason for Kou-Ou giving Sugimoto touki - after all, he's sending her as an agent into a foreign country.

[Neko-chan]

Here is my thought on Immortality after watching some ep like 10.
I think Immortality is in the 12 kingdom world more meant as longlivity and youth.
I remember En-ou saying you still can die of internal causes or beeing beheadet (prooven quiete often during the series).

also agree with Oion that Immortality is given during the Corronation ceremony at Mt Hou.

I also think the reason why Youko was not killed from her fall in the first ep was most likely Kourin saved her with her Youma,as she did with Sugimoto,it just never got shown.

[shadowsevalle]

My thoughts:

Youko wasn't granted immortal status until her coronation ceremony; Kourin likely saved her from plummeting to her death upon her arrival to the 12K.

Youko was able to speak the language of the 12K b/c she's a Taika. After all, when her Hinman left her body during her final showdown w/Sugimoto, wasn't she still able to speak the language? After all, I believe at that point she was still able to converse with other individuals in the courtyard besides the immortals.

My .02 - I could be wrong

[MegaDuck]

Kourin likely saved her from plummeting to her death upon her arrival to the 12K.

I think that is a little silly. Kourin was under orders to kill her. I can understand Suigimoto after all her orders where to kill Youko and she is a good person but saving Youko? If she wanted to save her why did she knock her of the flying youma in the first place.

After all, I believe at that point she was still able to converse with other individuals in the courtyard besides the immortals.

Yes at the time Youko was still able to talk to Rakshun who was the only none japanese none immortal person there.

I remember En-ou saying you still can die of internal causes or beeing beheadet (prooven quiete often during the series).

I got the beheaded part fine as it was shown alot but i never got the internal causes. The nasty mountin ruler lady told Suzu that immortals can not die by starvation so she was going to remove her right to eat. If you can not starve to death i find it hard to belive that you can get sick and die. All so Touki are described as weapons that can harm immortals so i got from that thet most weapons can not harm immortals.

I think the entire thing with the water sword through Youko's chest was not her immortality. I got the impression that it was just the sword refusing to harm its mistress. If psyco girl was trying to defend youko when she was using it it might have worked.

[shadowsevalle]

Hey MegaDuck,

Yeah, as I wrote earlier, I could be wrong about Kourin saving Youko, as saving Youko would seem to contravene Kourin's ostensible attempts to kill her. However, I believe that as when Sugimoto was about to administer the coupe de grace to Youko and Kourin stopped her, and when Kourin took the sword thrust Kou - Ou meant for Youko, so did Kourin save Youko as she was about to fall to her death. Why? Presumably because whenever Youko's death was clearly imminent, Kourin's conscience prevented her from allowing Youko to die. Of course, this is all speculation on my part, however, such an interpretation makes sense to me.

Also, I completely agree with you the water blade didn't harm Youko b/c only the Kei Empress or Emperor can use the weapon; after all, Youko dismissed her Himnan and allowed Sugimoto to stab her w/the blade expressly to prove to both Sugimoto (and herself) that she really was the Kei Empress.

My .02

[garamir]

My understanding was that Youko was able to understand the language because she is a Taika.

I would think that, too, but that conflicts with the aforementioned statement made by the teacher, unless he was wrong or was actually referring to kaikyaku in general. And knowing languages isn't an innate skill people have -- you have to learn them.
Edit:

"Even if you're a Taika, it doesn't mean you can speak this world's language."

3) She was already an immortal. Sugimoto stabed her with the Yoko's sword and was not able to kill her. It was than that the Kou emperor handed her another touki, saying something like this: "You can not kill her with that sword. Use this one...

I had a note about that in my original post saying basically what everyone else had said. Keep in mind that the Suiguutou can kill immortals. It's a magical sword, just like the touki. It was the fact that only Youko can wield it that kept her from being killed by it.

I think the theory I see emerging from the comments in this thread is that while Youko wasn't necessarily immortal and gifted with all the benefits of being an empress, the fact that she'd been chosen by Keiki and was on the road to becoming one gave her some advantage -- she got lucky on a few occasions, and with her change in appearance, she also knew the language.

Edit: I did notice one thing while watching that scene, though... their translator/editor has a problem with comma splices. -_-*

[JK Newbie]

DrFox
Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2003 2:03 pm    Post subject: Youma and Youko
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It is my understand the serpent is the one that holds the kingdom as explained by one of the Shirei plays early in the series.

Wait - so you are saying the sea serpent is the same as the snake in the origin of the world theater? That the reason the sea serpent could cross from lower-ocean to sky-ocean had something to do with that?

[JK Newbie]

garamir
Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2003 4:26 am    Post subject:
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... Also, she had no contract of immortality until the formal coronation ceremony. She was recognized by Keiki as the empress, but that didn't grant her any of the benefits of her station until they were made formal. This is confirmed in the dialogue during her coronation as well as during the flashback to En-ou's.

MegaDuck
Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2003 12:00 pm    Post subject:
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The difference in opinion is in the pledge and the calling. I understand the arguement that she gets the immortality at the calling but i am also thinking about what En-ou tells her. He and Enki tell her that she could go back to japan then but then keiki would sicken and die and that she would fall over and die to. I got the feeling from that thet she is already connected to keiki and misdeeds on her part will result in their mutual deaths. You are right though the status of emporor gives the power not the person.

oion
Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2003 8:10 pm    Post subject:
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I disagree; from the references to the Immortality Register, I think Tentei conveys immortality at that point only during the ascension.
Also, nothing special happened between the time that Rakushun saved her and when Youko discovered her title in ep9 - if she was immortal at that point, there would be no need for Rakushun to save her at all.

garamir
Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2003 2:16 am    Post subject:
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I think the theory I see emerging from the comments in this thread is that while Youko wasn't necessarily immortal and gifted with all the benefits of being an empress, the fact that she'd been chosen by Keiki and was on the road to becoming one gave her some advantage -- she got lucky on a few occasions, and with her change in appearance, she also knew the language.

Edit: I did notice one thing while watching that scene, though... their translator/editor has a problem with comma splices. -_-*

As Perry Mason would say it’s the timing that counts. Certainly in Japan, Youko had no imperial powers UNTIL she accepted Keiki’s pledge which is why he was so eager she agree quickly. She pulled and used the sword easily (though by insistance of the Hinman). The sword’s crystal along with her changing physiology, the Hinman, and possibly Kourin managed to keep her alive. While she wanted to die when Rakushun found her he had told her she had slept for several days with a fever - yet the impression is that she was more spiritually lost as opposed to dying in body. We never get to see her stabbed by anything accept the Suiguutou though Kourin does block the possible final blow so we never know if the sword could kill Youko, touki or normal sword (I did not hear the sword ever called a touki though it could be implied since Saku-ou would know to use one to be sure to kill her and his insistance that it would work sounds like he did). The Hinman stays with her and she never gets near enough to danger afterwards to truly know when she has immortality except that she certainly has it as of the time of ascension.

[JK Newbie]

MegaDuck
Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2003 12:00 pm    Post subject:
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With respect to the injury by the sword suigimoto was injured and even with the jewel she was not regenerating nearly as fast as youko. Youko mentions this to someone how she seems to heal really fast.

garamir
Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2003 4:26 am    Post subject:
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Quote:
In the seconed epesoide she is knocked of the flying youma thing and plummets 5,000 feet or so wakes up with nothing but nothing but scratchs a few bruises and a hurt ankle. The Ankle then heals at a increadably rate.

This is an interesting point, but wasn't the power of the sword helping her heal? The fall itself... I don't know if that could be explained by just the sword's power.

Neko-chan
Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2003 8:47 pm    Post subject:
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I also think the reason why Youko was not killed from her fall in the first ep was most likely Kourin saved her with her Youma,as she did with Sugimoto,it just never got shown.

shadowsevalle
Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2003 9:27 pm    Post subject:
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Youko wasn't granted immortal status until her coronation ceremony; Kourin likely saved her from plummeting to her death upon her arrival to the 12K.
shadowsevalle
Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2003 2:54 pm    Post subject:
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Hey MegaDuck,
Yeah, as I wrote earlier, I could be wrong about Kourin saving Youko, as saving Youko would seem to contravene Kourin's ostensible attempts to kill her. However, I believe that as when Sugimoto was about to administer the coupe de grace to Youko and Kourin stopped her, and when Kourin took the sword thrust Kou - Ou meant for Youko, so did Kourin save Youko as she was about to fall to her death. Why? Presumably because whenever Youko's death was clearly imminent, Kourin's conscience prevented her from allowing Youko to die. Of course, this is all speculation on my part, however, such an interpretation makes sense to me.

Kourin may well have interfered BUT that would go against the emperor’s express wishes while saving Sugimoto and Asano was not technically part of Kourin’s command. In order to blatantly go against command, Kourin would have to sacrifice herself as she did later since Kirin cannot refuse any command by the emperor no matter how evil or petty without loss of life. Instead, more likely Kourin used the opportunity of Youko’s temporary loss by delaying the search and going after the other two as if by mistake. As well, more importantly Kourin’s target was Keiki since without him Youko had no proof of her status. The wolves did not come after the 3 captives until the prefect had reported their presence and then was told to send them elsewhere, setting them up for attack. Odd that the sword was with them in the cart. Should have been sent with Keiki to Kei (mentioned in another thread). Hmmm.

[JK Newbie]

oion
Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2003 8:10 pm    Post subject:
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As for the sword not harming her, it's an ownership issue IMO. She was chosen, the sword cannot harm her; ... En Ou's comment that only the true emperor can ever use the sword supports the ownership argument far better than an immortality one.
When did Kou-Ou give Sugimoto a touki? During their last fight? I don't recall it being named as such. Also, touki may be able to harm immortals, but they obviously can harm mortals. There may be a far more practical reason for Kou-Ou giving Sugimoto touki - after all, he's sending her as an agent into a foreign country.

garamir
Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2003 2:16 am    Post subject:
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Quote:
3) She was already an immortal. Sugimoto stabed her with the Yoko's sword and was not able to kill her. It was than that the Kou emperor handed her another touki, saying something like this: "You can not kill her with that sword. Use this one...

I had a note about that in my original post saying basically what everyone else had said. Keep in mind that the Suiguutou can kill immortals. It's a magical sword, just like the touki. It was the fact that only Youko can wield it that kept her from being killed by it.

From the events and info given, immortality was not the reason for Youko surviving Suiguutou. From Kourin’s actions, Kourin appeared to know Saku-ou would have killed Youko since Kourin too would need a touki to be killed and was indeed with only a mortal stab, no beheading. Implies Youko was known to be immortal but then again Saku-ou may have been simply over cautious.

[JK Newbie]

garamir
Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2003 4:26 am    Post subject:
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Youko was able to speak the language because she had the help of her Hinman. However, if there was a scene I'm forgetting where she could speak without the Hinman's help, then she does seem to be more than just an ordinary Taika if that scene's translation (and the teacher's information) was correct.

shadowsevalle
Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2003 9:27 pm    Post subject:
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Youko was able to speak the language of the 12K b/c she's a Taika. After all, when her Hinman left her body during her final showdown w/Sugimoto, wasn't she still able to speak the language? After all, I believe at that point she was still able to converse with other individuals in the courtyard besides the immortals.

garamir
Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2003 2:16 am    Post subject:
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Codex wrote:
My understanding was that Youko was able to understand the language because she is a Taika.

I would think that, too, but that conflicts with the aforementioned statement made by the teacher, unless he was wrong or was actually referring to kaikyaku in general. And knowing languages isn't an innate skill people have -- you have to learn them.
Edit:
Quote:
"Even if you're a Taika, it doesn't mean you can speak this world's language."

That’s the point I was hoping to clear up. Seems he was saying the 12k language is learned just as any language so an average Taika new arrived would not speak the language without lessons unless given a short cut such as sage status, a Hinman, etc., or by being a naturally gifted “wizard”. The teacher must not have been told about the Hinman. However, by the time Youko fights without the Hinman she seems to be able to understand the language on her own. May have always been the case thereby hinting she was naturally gifted or perhaps her imperial gifts were conferred on her sooner long before she ascended. In one of the En stories, it was mentioned or implied that the kirin can grant imperial benefits once recognizing and pledging to the emperor.

[frostschutz]

I think the entire thing with the water sword through Youko's chest was not her immortality. I got the impression that it was just the sword refusing to harm its mistress.

The sword does not refuse to harm its mistress. I'm fairly sure that Youko could easily kill herself using that sword. It's just that nobody except the king/queen of Kei can use it to kill anything. The king of En says that, if he were to use the sword, he wouldn't be able to kill a single youma.

Thus, no matter what Sugimoto attacks with Youko's sword, it would be totally unharmed. The sword is just totally useless if it's in the wrong hands.

[rakucho]

I believe you are correct regarding this. I do remember that drunken bastard saying something useful along those lines. I THINK it was a way to prove whether she was truly the Empress of Kei or not (she mentioned something about that) since only the emperor/empress can use the sword.

[Blau_fenrir]

Hello, I'm new here, so I hope you'll be patient with me. Since I watch this anime, I have some questions that keep popping, I wonder if anyone can help to answer this questions. Here are they :

1. Chooryu (the sea dragon) is he also a toutetsu (a special youma ?)
2. Are nyoukai normally looks like a bird - man creatures (with the exceptional of Sanshi) ?
3. Anyone knows the reasons of Taiki returns to Wa ? BTW: about the wound on his forehead, could it means that he broke his horn ( remembering how he fell when he returns..no suprise on that!), could this be the cause that Enki could not sense his presence in Wa ?
4. Are there any other Kirin that has a special item such as Renrin (its her name right ?) ?
5.On eps.39, a soldier said, "who else in this world that can ride on the back of a Kirin?" (else then the emperor/empress). However on Taiki's chapter we saw that he actually rides on Keiki's back ? any explanation ?
Thanks

[MegaDuck]

ok just my impressions

1. Chooryu (the sea dragon) is he also a toutetsu (a special youma ?)

Probably

2. Are nyoukai normally looks like a bird - man creatures (with the exceptional of Sanshi) ?

Well they do not always it seems and the old lady said that sanshi was a lucky combination. I suppose they could be a cross from everything like kourins had a leper bird human cross. But i think that bird is a rather common one to cross in.

Anyone knows the reasons of Taiki returns to Wa ? BTW: about the wound on his forehead, could it means that he broke his horn ( remembering how he fell when he returns..no suprise on that!), could this be the cause that Enki could not sense his presence in Wa ?

Horrible spoilers.

The blood of the forhead is because his horn was cut off. The exact reasons for that and why he is back in japan are not yet known.

4. Are there any other Kirin that has a special item such as Renrin (its her name right ?) ?

Renrins cool itam was the kindoms legendary item which either the Kirin or the Emporor posses. For Kou it is the bracelet Kourin has, for Kei it is the Long taled monkey sword that Youko Weilds. So yes all of them or their emporors do.

On eps.39, a soldier said, "who else in this world that can ride on the back of a Kirin?" (else then the emperor/empress). However on Taiki's chapter we saw that he actually rides on Keiki's back ? any explanation ?

The generals quote is not truely accurate as anyone can ride the kirins back with permision. The kid that was shot rode Keiki to the palace for treatment so people can. The only one who can command to ride on a kirins back is siad kirins emporer. So a person that is using a kirin as a steed is probably that kirins emporer as he said. The statement is a little impressise but it gets the point across of if you see someone riding a kirin it is probably an emporor therefor if you see someone ridding the kirin of Kei it is probably the empress of Kei therefore they where screwed.