Hourin's role *spoilers*

drifterx · Post by **drifterx** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 7:07 pm

Do you honestly think the people would let Hourin live much less follow whoever she chooses to be the next Emperor? Creature of god or not, she would not have escaped the wrath of the masses. Gekkei would not be able to protect her and if he believes that she carries half the burden of punishment then we have no choice but to agree with him because you cannot prove otherwise. Kirins do share half of the responsibility to the kingdom and they even have power of rulership. They are the Saiho, the High advisor to the Emperor. They even rule the capital! How then can Hourin escape punishment? What makes you think that the other advisors were not punished with her? It is quite customary to purge out those who remained faithful to the old regime, I'm sure Gekkei did just that to form the new government of the Moon.

Without Gekkei's intervention, Hourin would most certainly die of shitsudou. Her death is inevitable, no matter how tragic you may see it to be.

EDIT: Ah crap. I had this saved up since this morning since I wouldn't be able to post until a few hours ago. Oh well, at least we agree on something now.

Seravy · Post by **Seravy** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 9:08 pm

drifterx wrote:Do you honestly think the people would let Hourin live much less follow whoever she chooses to be the next Emperor? Creature of god or not, she would not have escaped the wrath of the masses. Gekkei would not be able to protect her and if he believes that she carries half the burden of punishment then we have no choice but to agree with him because you cannot prove otherwise. Kirins do share half of the responsibility to the kingdom and they even have power of rulership. They are the Saiho, the High advisor to the Emperor. They even rule the capital! How then can Hourin escape punishment? What makes you think that the other advisors were not punished with her? It is quite customary to purge out those who remained faithful to the old regime, I'm sure Gekkei did just that to form the new government of the Moon.

Wait. I am convinced that her death was inevitable and out of mercy but I cannot agree with the responsibility part yet. She had to die because of her given position as Saiho and the people's inability to see past their hatred which is understandable after what they have been through but not of the actual damage she had done. In my previous posts, I've already established that there were many factors which rendered her incapable of acting against him which applied to Gekkei and all the ministry members. She may have rule of the capital but it's also the region which is most constantly scrutinized by the emperor. It would be no surprise if the capital was the worst.

Kirins may be said as the other half of the king but again, they rule only one province out of many and is most suspectible to the emperor's authority due to their bond and time spent together. It would be no surprise if Retsu-ou was even harsher towards Hourin as she is his kirin, the same way he worked so hard to raise Shoukei towards his ideal of purity and innocence as Gekkei mentioned.

Again with the Sairin example but she served the previous two emperors until their deaths but the people still like her. It would have been the same for Hourin if not for the tremendous amount of damage that Hou suffered. In a sense, Hourin is a sacrifice to appease the people's fury only because of her rank.

rakucho · Post by **rakucho** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 9:11 am

wow... what a discussion...

The way i see it, if there's no Hourin ranka growing, then Hourin isn't dead (just like Taiki's case. No ranka = Taiki's still alive). That would raise questions of what exactly did Gekkei do then.

If you think about it, a man who fought against the will of heaven for his people, would he be so blind and crazy enough to go further and even kill the Kirin. That would only put his people into more suffering since they'll have to wait for the Kirin to be reborn, raised, and find the next Emperor/Empress (who knows how long that'll take). He clearly stated that what was done HAD to be done. Killing Hourin is unnecessary and even disastrous. I don't believe he killed Kourin at all. My guess is that he wounded her but not killed her. She's actually still alive and recuperating somewhere or has already recovered from the shitsudo and is out looking for her next ruler. The way this is left open and unexplained easily leave room for a side story doesn't it?

Neko-chan · Post by **Neko-chan** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 11:14 am

rakucho wrote:wow... what a discussion...

The way i see it, if there's no Hourin ranka growing, then Hourin isn't dead (just like Taiki's case. No ranka = Taiki's still alive). That would raise questions of what exactly did Gekkei do then.

If you think about it, a man who fought against the will of heaven for his people, would he be so blind and crazy enough to go further and even kill the Kirin. That would only put his people into more suffering since they'll have to wait for the Kirin to be reborn, raised, and find the next Emperor/Empress (who knows how long that'll take). He clearly stated that what was done HAD to be done. Killing Hourin is unnecessary and even disastrous. I don't believe he killed Kourin at all. My guess is that he wounded her but not killed her. She's actually still alive and recuperating somewhere or has already recovered from the shitsudo and is out looking for her next ruler. The way this is left open and unexplained easily leave room for a side story doesn't it?

Oh, there is no doubt Hourin is dead....just rewatch episode 23.
I to think she deserved t die...at least any other Kirin i seen so far said at least something to his emperor...but i never heard Hourin saying anything at all..It look like she was totaly overpowerd by the Emperor and his manipulat wife .maybe she thought just beeing there was enogh?....well it was not.
And i agree with the others saying the people would hate her...how can they not...she is the other half.
If you think back when Keiki's first emperess orderd all the girls of Kei to be exiled/killed(which was it?)Keiki tried to stop her.......Hourin on the other hand did not even that.

Codex · Post by **Codex** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 1:18 pm

rakucho wrote:wow... what a discussion...

The way i see it, if there's no Hourin ranka growing, then Hourin isn't dead (just like Taiki's case. No ranka = Taiki's still alive). That would raise questions of what exactly did Gekkei do then.

I like the view that someone mentioned previously, that the absence of the Hou ranka may be Tentei's punishment to the people of Hou for having killed a kirin. I'm surprised that none of the sages have remarked on that point though.

Neko-chan wrote: I to think she deserved t die...at least any other Kirin i seen so far said at least something to his emperor...but i never heard Hourin saying anything at all..It look like she was totaly overpowerd by the Emperor and his manipulat wife .maybe she thought just beeing there was enogh?....well it was not.
And i agree with the others saying the people would hate her...how can they not...she is the other half.
If you think back when Keiki's first emperess orderd all the girls of Kei to be exiled/killed(which was it?)Keiki tried to stop her.......Hourin on the other hand did not even that.

I think Hourin just had very little air time. Before she was struck with the shitsudou, I'm sure she did her best to convince the Emperor of the error of his ways. Kirin being the meek and submissive creatures that they are, her views would have been even more casually dismissed than when Gekkei raised the point to the Emperor. Furthermore, Hou-Ou was married and had a child before coming to the throne. The relationship between emperor and kirin would have been that much weaker for that, even if his wife wasn't the selfish, manipulative woman that she was.

Seravy · Post by **Seravy** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 4:11 pm

Codex wrote: I like the view that someone mentioned previously, that the absence of the Hou ranka may be Tentei's punishment to the people of Hou for having killed a kirin. I'm surprised that none of the sages have remarked on that point though.

maybe it's implied as saying it's tentei's punishment after what happened in Hou would probably be considered as some sort of taboo for it's sensitive nature. I dunno, just a guess.

Neko-chan wrote: I think Hourin just had very little air time.

Less airtime, no talking, one less voice actress to find and less animation. works out for the budget part.

Codex wrote: Before she was struck with the shitsudou, I'm sure she did her best to convince the Emperor of the error of his ways. Kirin being the meek and submissive creatures that they are, her views would have been even more casually dismissed than when Gekkei raised the point to the Emperor. Furthermore, Hou-Ou was married and had a child before coming to the throne. The relationship between emperor and kirin would have been that much weaker for that, even if his wife wasn't the selfish, manipulative woman that she was.

That's an interesting point. Somewhere, Youko mentioned that Kou-oh had a son and a daughter which meant that he was already married before becoming king and there, again, we see a weak bond between the king and kirin. Explains why emperors are not allowed to marry after accepting the throne.

Yume Li · Post by **Yume Li** » Sun Jan 16, 2005 8:42 pm

The anime didn't exactly show Hourin being beheaded. It only showed Gekkei slashing her. So, Gekkei might have spared her and Hourin could be looking for the new emperor of Hou. That might be why there are no new ranka of Hou on the tree.

Niwashi2 · Post by **Niwashi2** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 9:07 pm

Yume Li wrote:The anime didn't exactly show Hourin being beheaded. It only showed Gekkei slashing her. So, Gekkei might have spared her and Hourin could be looking for the new emperor of Hou. That might be why there are no new ranka of Hou on the tree.

It only showed the slash of his sword for the same reason it only showed that for his beheading of the the king's wife, and only showed the falling of an axe for the executions that had been going on. That's the accepted method for depicting killing on screen whenever the point is to advance a real story rather than just depict a lot of gore.

The opening to the following episode stated "King Hou and Hourin were killed by rebels". As to why there isn't a ranka for Hou on the tree, why would anyone expect there to be? This took place several years ago. The new kirin of Hou should be a toddler by this point (or the kirin equivalent of a toddler).

Neko-chan · Post by **Neko-chan** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 1:33 am

i doubt she is alive..they did anounce her death(would she be not be back to Mt Hou then...like Keiki when he was looking for his 2nd emperor?)...but i also doubt there is already a new kirin born..it would have been mentioned to Youko when she was visiting Mt Hou...as she was told there is a new ranka for Kou.....
Maybe this is Tentai's Punishment for Hou to delay a new Kirin..like its been mention befor here in the forum.

Niwashi2 · Post by **Niwashi2** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 5:04 pm

Neko-chan wrote:...but i also doubt there is already a new kirin born..it would have been mentioned to Youko when she was visiting Mt Hou...as she was told there is a new ranka for Kou.....

I think that's more just a matter of one coming up and the other not. Youko goes to see the sashinboku and there's a ranka on it which holds the new kirin of Kou. Youko is familiar with Kou and was present when its previous kirin was killed. Of course she'd be told about that one when she sees it. It doesn't necessarily follow that she would be told about there elsewhere being an infant kirin for another country which she may possibly have heard of by this point but has no more association with than that.

Shokou · Post by **Shokou** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:05 pm

I'm reviving this years-old topic to defend Hourin like I defended Shokei: She did nothing. She tried her best to stop Chuutatsu, but he just didn't listen.

By killing Hourin, who doesn't *choose* the kings, the bastard Gekkei made his kingdom suffer even more. The ranka takes some years to give birth to a Kirin, and then the kirin usually takes many years to find a king...most of them look like they are 20. Then there's a Kou ranka growing already...and it doesn't matter that there's an interim government: Youma will make the people suffer regardless.

So if Hourin was left alive, people would hate her and try to kill her as she looked for a new emperor? I don't think so. Even though they don't know the emperor is chosen by the heavens, she would escape shitsudou before leaving the palace, and according to my theory, be able to summon shireis again. This way, if a group of people dares attacking a creature of god, her shireis would make them pay.

Shokou · Post by **Shokou** » Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:04 pm

If the king dies first, shitsudou is healed after a bit of time.

mindstalk · Post by **mindstalk** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 11:40 pm

DimensionW wrote:Thats only ever mentioned to be true in the case of a resignation ceremony performed before the Dowager of the West (or whatever they call her in other translations... I forget)

In Shore of Twilight, the Dowager of the West is shown to have the ability to heal kirin and exorcise impurities from them, so I'm inclined to believe thats the only case in which a kirin suffering from shitsudo would get better with the cost of a ruler's life.

"Aside from the king returning to the Way, there is one other way for the kirin to be cured of the shitsudou."

"And that is?"

"That is, for the king to release the kirin from the covenant. The simplest method is for the king to end his own life. If the king dies first, the kirin will not."

Chapter 59 of Shadow of the Moon. That's En-ou speaking. Since Seioubou's (Queen Mother of the West) cleansing was not mentioned for Keiki, nor was Keiki mentioned for Taiki's cleansing, and we have another shitsudou survivor -- Sairin, who carried a branch in memory of her former king -- I'm thinking "king dies, kirin recovers" works without any open divine intervention.

Shokou · Post by **Shokou** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:41 am

And this is why I don't see Hourin as a responsible, making Gekkei's act completely irrational. I don't understand that man...he even admired his king.

Juuni · Post by **Juuni** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 7:56 am

Neko-chan wrote:Maybe this is Tentai's Punishment for Hou to delay a new Kirin..like its been mention befor here in the forum.

That's what I think too. Though I can surely see the reasons why the king, his family and his kirin would be decapitated in a situation like that, I think that what happened in the kingdom of Hou was not very pleasing to Tentei's "eyes". And that's why they do not receive a new kirin now.

That or Gekkei is really the right king and he does not need a kirin to confirm it...But that is highly improbable.

mindstalk · Post by **mindstalk** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 8:52 am

Although at one point it sounds like there's no kirin growing, in the texts it's clearer that there was a ranka but it's blown away in another shoku. Kyou-ou keeps asking the nyosen about it and they don't want to talk about it but there'd been a ranka with known gender. Houki, I think? Anyway, this one's probably in China -- storm blew to the west.

Shokou · Post by **Shokou** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 7:21 pm

Sadly, the ranka growing is for Kou...

mindstalk · Post by **mindstalk** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 6:16 pm

Well, it's been three years, the Houki should be a 2 or 3 year old kirin now, not a ranka. But the ranka blew away, so Houki's in China or somewhere.

Shokou · Post by **Shokou** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 9:44 pm

Do they say that in the novels? If Houki ends up being a taika, the kindgom should be made better.

mindstalk · Post by **mindstalk** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 9:50 pm

I wouldn't want to find it off-hand, but as I said, somewhere in the texts it's clearer that a ranka existed but is AWOL, vs. our initial impression of it not existing. Kyou-ou keeps asking about it.

Shokou · Post by **Shokou** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 10:48 pm

Funny how the best kings and kirins are taikas...<_<

mindstalk · Post by **mindstalk** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 11:15 pm

That's a strong statement. En-ou is only the second oldest king -- Sou-ou is older. Han-ou is 300 years old, so past the first hump or two. Kyou-ou seems good, though only 90. And people find Taiki cute, but I find Hanrin or Sairin or Renrin have as much or more personality.

It's more like "of taika rulers we don't know of any bad ones" but the sample size is rather small. One, basically, and an assumption that Youko will do well because she's a protagonist.

Shokou · Post by **Shokou** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 12:02 am

Yeah, I wish non-taikas were shown more. >_>

lavender_wind · Post by **lavender_wind** » Sat Sep 27, 2008 4:04 am

Just to give my two cents worth on the issue with Hourin

Actually, I think Hourin should not be allowed to live. Let's not forget the fact that Retsu-ou was her second king, meaning that there was a king before him who had lost the way as well. As such, Hourin had been given a second chance to remedy her fault of not being able to convice her first master to correct his actions (whatever that was), and she had failed again with Retsu-ou.

Perhaps in the case with Retsu-ou, Hourin might not be able to do much with his manipulative queen around, but I guess this might be a sign that Hourin was very soft-spoken such that it was very difficult for her to make her king listen to and see her point, or to take some action as in the case with Kourin and Keiki. Therefore, if there is a chance that her third master is going to lose the way as well, Hourin may not be able to convince him and the people would have to suffer again. That's perhaps why Gekkei would commit the henious crime of killing a kirin, because of Hourin's character.

Besides, Retsu-ou had only reigned for 30years, which is a relatively short period to me. Thus, there is a high possibility that the tyranny of Hourin's first master is still being remembered. Together with Retsu-ou's mad killing spree, I would suppose many citizens of Hou would blame Hourin for the choosing 2 wrong kings (although her fault lies not in the choosing but rather in the failing to correct them). This would make it difficult for her to earn the respect of the people her as she look for her third master. On top of that, there might be a confidence issue in the new emperor whom she chooses.

However, I do pity Hourin's bad luck that her both her emperors seemed to stray onto the wrong path quite easily and she had to pay for it. Still...

Shokou · Post by **Shokou** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 1:53 am

You do make a good point, but remember: Hourin doesn't need the respect of anyone in order to choose the new king. If the new king comes, the youma will calm off. The king can be chosen much faster if Hourin is kept alive.

The entire kingdom will suffer much more if the Kirin is also killed, because it may take time for a Kirin to appear...look at Kyouki, he took 28 years to choose a king. And there's already a ranka for Kou...Hourin is a Kirin, a creature of the heavens. Mere humans do not have the right to kill her.

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Hourin's role spoilers