The Twelve Kingdoms Forum

kei_taiho wrote:i want to know keiki more... i don't understand why he literally doesn't got any emotions...that's very weird....some characters might be unemotonal outside, but they hide sumthin inside....i don't think keiki hides anything...really weird....

I'm not sure where you came up with the idea of Keiki not having emotions. It's true that he isn't flamboyant about it, and he has a very hard time expressing his emotions clearly, but if you watch him it's obvious how deeply he cares about things. I've always seen him as by far the most deeply emotional character in the series (which is the main reason I like him so much).

As to whether he's hiding anything, I think he tries not to, but is simply unable to express himself well. This difficulty in expressing himself is brought up most directly in the arc with Taiki, but you can see it in his interactions with Youko as well. Nor is it limited to expressing emotions; he has an equally hard time expressing ideas.

I really wish we could see some of Keiki's early childhood. That's when the ability to express thoughts and feelings is normally learned. He has the personality of someone who didn't get the necessary socialization during childhood and so missed some of those developmental stages.

Niwashi2 wrote:

kei_taiho wrote:i want to know keiki more... i don't understand why he literally doesn't got any emotions...that's very weird....some characters might be unemotonal outside, but they hide sumthin inside....i don't think keiki hides anything...really weird....

I'm not sure where you came up with the idea of Keiki not having emotions. It's true that he isn't flamboyant about it, and he has a very hard time expressing his emotions clearly, but if you watch him it's obvious how deeply he cares about things. I've always seen him as by far the most deeply emotional character in the series (which is the main reason I like him so much).

As to whether he's hiding anything, I think he tries not to, but is simply unable to express himself well. This difficulty in expressing himself is brought up most directly in the arc with Taiki, but you can see it in his interactions with Youko as well. Nor is it limited to expressing emotions; he has an equally hard time expressing ideas.

I really wish we could see some of Keiki's early childhood. That's when the ability to express thoughts and feelings is normally learned. He has the personality of someone who didn't get the necessary socialization during childhood and so missed some of those developmental stages.

but he is still the weirdest unemotional character i have seen...he's diffrent that's why i love him alot......well yeah,. he's got a hard tym expressing his self....he only follows what is ryt...not thinkin of any feeling...but i think the idea of him being a kirin is stuck in his mind...it's like he knows he is different so he must not like be humans....he knows his duty, so he has set his mind on it.....
i would like to see his childhood too...so it would be clear why he is like that....
but i think, it's just the same old thing on how a nyoukai and a sage would take care of a kirin...it's just that his mind is set only on how to be a good kirin....

I don't know if I'd say Keiki is an unemotional character. He kind of has the typical cool anime guy attitude. A compassionate person, but not good at expressing himself. Sometimes a bit dense. Kind of like how men in our society are taught to be..."don't show emotions" blah blah blah. Love him very much. Love all of them very much. Each individual has their distinct personalities that changes and grows.

So, I thought this was a topic about how the general public thought of it. What specifically, should we be discussing?

AliceC wrote:I don't know if I'd say Keiki is an unemotional character. He kind of has the typical cool anime guy attitude. A compassionate person, but not good at expressing himself. Sometimes a bit dense. Kind of like how men in our society are taught to be..."don't show emotions" blah blah blah. Love him very much. Love all of them very much. Each individual has their distinct personalities that changes and grows.

So, I thought this was a topic about how the general public thought of it. What specifically, should we be discussing?

hehehehe...yeah let's go back to the orignal use of this thread...

So, back to the topic. I don't know about general public, but among my friends, there are many mixed responses about Twelve Kingdoms.

Quiet a few people got into it after the first episode. Others kept putting it off because they weren't too interested in the genre (although there are so many intertwining plots and themes that anyone would be into ). Many people got tired of it rather quickly. And a lot of them just did not want to start viewing them until they've watched a few episodes (which is where I come in ^_______^).

So far, I haven't met anyone who has watched the whole thing and said they didnt' like it. There's a lot of comparison to other animes, but lets just get it straight that Juuni Kokki came out waaaayyyyyyyyyyyy before most of those animes and mangas.

A lot of people just did not want to get into it because it seems soooo long and already out on DVD. $$$$ issues.

well....not many people really knows about this anime...maybe they're not much into it bcoz it's a very different kind of anime...but i think the description that will catch the interest of the ppl is...it's like lord of the rings...a fantasy epic story...that's why it is very different...and it's my first tym to see a fantasy epic anime..coz stories of this kind usually goes to movies...

well, my sister is hooked on this anime too...but she can't watch all of it bcoz she goes to work that's why we are searching for episodes in stores....
she said that it has a very good start....and animes must have this kind of story....it really had an impact on her...as much as it had an impact on me...i really like fantasy epic stories....but i am not yet able to read LOTR...and i am excited for english translation of this book...

Well, how to put this...our society has become less and less...uh...into theortical and epic literature. No offense to stuff like Harry Potter or Matrix, but if you really look at them, these are not too different from the thousands of great literature, myths, folklores, and oral stories out there. Yet, people loved them because they seemed so different. I enjoyed Harry Potter and the Matrix, but they're things I've seen many times before.

Also, people's attention span has greatly diminished. They want to know everything within the first 15 minutes (if not shorter) and not have to use their brain to think. I'm not excluding myself from this category, just acknowledging that with the time obsessed society that we are in, it's not likely people will really get into Juuni Kokki that quickly. Besides, it's not for everyone (even though I feel it is >.<).

AliceC wrote:Well, how to put this...our society has become less and less...uh...into theortical and epic literature.

Also, people's attention span has greatly diminished. They want to know everything within the first 15 minutes (if not shorter) and not have to use their brain to think. I'm not excluding myself from this category, just acknowledging that with the time obsessed society that we are in, it's not likely people will really get into Juuni Kokki that quickly.

Actually, I have to disagree. Society has always been impatient. People have always had short attention spans. They always wanted to get more than they put in, and get it yesterday. This is a nature of human beings. Hence, I can't even exclude myself out of this tendancy because I am, in the end, a human being.

The only thing that changes is the technology. We now have a vast amount of information a our fingertips, and we can lose ourselves in the world that is called the internet. Thus, we can complete lose personal contact with other people. But has this really changed? People have always lost themselves in TV shows, movies, books, scientific research, inventions, car projects, sports, drugs, music, and so on, and never really talk one-on-one with other people or with themselves.

Besides, it's not for everyone (even though I feel it is >.<).

Now people are always looking for and have always looked for entertainment. Hence, entertainment has to be, well, entertaining. And this is really where I find problems may occur with the begining of Juuni Kokki. Unless you're interested in the world that's being presented or getting the many questions that rise up in these first five episodes answered, this series will just lose you because not many people will really enjoy watching 3 kids suffer, have to steal for food and clothes, and be betrayed over and over again.

It's a similar problem with the anime series Now and Then, Here and There and the anime movie Grave of the Fireflies. These are amazing works of art, but as entertainment, they really do fail, because it is not truly entertaining to watch children killing other children, young kids being tortured, or the implication of a young girl getting raped or watching two very young children slowly starve to death in the aftermath of World War II. If these things entertain you, then I worry about you and will do my best to keep away... . But these animes are works of art because they bring out strong emotions and can make you think of the consequences of self pity, wars, and pride.

These things will not make them immediately popular though. What they will do, though, is eventually become classics. Grave of the Fireflies is already considered a classic since it was released in 1988 and we have big named American film critics such as Roger Ebert saying that this Japanese anime movie "belongs on any list of the greatest war films ever made."

So, again, I have to disagree. Art is for everyone, but not everybody is ready for it. Even in my case, I was not ready for Juuni Kokki the first time I watched it about 2 years ago. I really liked it, but I could not fathom why, until I rewatched it earlier this year.

So, in the end, if you want to help Juuni Kokki's popularity, start from the bottom. Build up ground support by showing it to all of your friends and family. Try to get them past the early hump of the first 10 episodes, but don't force it on them. Just be there with them watching it and answer every question with "it will be explained later" . It they are not interested in the world or any of the characters by now, then I don't think it's necessary for them to continue; this series is simply not for them. (Then again, they might love the second arc. It's hard to say.)

Ack, that was long. Hope it wasn't confusing...

well....in my opinion....ppl who have better gets to like JK from the start...it's not i am bragging or sumthin...but a story like that needs understanding..as you can see, you get to know more and more about the story when you re-watch and rewatch it....
as for my sister...she really doesn't like anime....but when she watched it, she said it has a very good start...but in my mind, i don't think that kind of beggining will appeal to the majority of people though i enjoyed it too...(not to mention on how cute keiki is...)
but actually, it really won't be easy for JK to be popular....in terms of publicity, it would be hard to make a commercial that would reflect on how good JK is...since it's story is complicated....so, it will be just up to the ppl....many ppl doesn.t really get interested in epics though in the end, they get hooked on it...
but it is popular in japan, let's just hope that the english book would come out so it will have a good start....i am sure it would b as popular as LOTR and WOT....

People are not identical. Culture, enviroment, and social factors change and influence all of us as individuals. We are all entitled to our own opinion.

As for promoting Juuni Kokki, I must also agree that I haven't seen much of it around. Actually, I didn't even see any promotions. It was just something I clicked on accident. It looked interesting enough (actually, I debated for about 3 months since it was the DVD I was looking at) and bought it in one of my spur of the moment feelings. Turns out, I liked the first DVD enough to finish and have loved it ever since.

When I showed it to my friends, there were mixed reviews. A few loved it after the first episode. Others finished off the first arc then really got addicted. There were some friends that could not get into it at all.

Oh well.

yes sure...peeps are different...yeah...but i dunno...i just have seen that no matter how different people are, majority still loves epic stories....maybe bcoz it promotes a totally different world? as i have seen, tolkien and jordan has proven that....i think ono-sensei will prove it for the third time....it doesn't need to have commercials...tolkien and jordan didn't have....
well, i am saying this bcoz i am not treating JK only as an anime...i treat it as one of the best epic books...
so, i will just wait for the book....i am sure people will love it.....and they will love the anime too... i am sure of that...

From what I've heard, those whom have read the books and watched the animes like both. Although the novels are still the favorite, the general opinions I have heard were that the animes were well done. The changes were helpful in continuing the story and people were happy with it. Unlike a lot of manga=>animes or books=>movies, Juuni Kokki was well scripted and animated. Of course, the novels are better, but the anime was well made.

of course...the anime was well done.... i really just hope that people will come to realize that JK is sumthin that is really lovely and very good....
it's just in my opinion....JK will have it's big break if they released the translations.... and the anime will be very helpful for the people to have a better imagination of what the story is... ain't it?

To me like you've said already, I do wish alot of people will watch JK but won't.

It's rather like the LoTR debate, alot of people I know didn't like it (I'm a teenager so i'm speaking for the younger crowd here) because well for one as you said, it was too slow, espically the last one and that it was constantly battle after battle but I'm a medieval history student so I don't mind so much ^^ I see JK in the same light, teenagers "most but not all" want several things from their entertainment 1) a love story
2) violence
3) humor
and as you can see JK doesn't have much of that >_< neither does Lord of the Rings. However if you take something like Titanic say... (I had this discussion on a coach trip to Italy with a fellow person, I was for LOTR and they were against... Titanic came up because we watched it two times... two frickin times!!) it's gotta alot of those things, love and lots of death... and is relatively short.
I remember showing my friend the first disc of JK and them going "phew... all that on just one disc!"

and I must say... the first time I watched JK... I hated it, all the things I expected from anime wasn't there... I felt cheated then... I came to the realization, JK isn't like those other anime, it's different. JK took me on an emotional rollercoaster, something I really wasn't comfortable with and why JK means so much to me today, I was schoolgirl Yuko... and in some ways I still am but JK helped me to see what kind of person I was and be stronger ^^ just like Yuko I guess. But still I am a teenage girl... I'm soppy I was dissapointed with the lack of romance... and I'm an girl who loves her comedy so that was a bit of a downer too plus what happened to Yuko... she kind turned mannish and I do and maybe will always hate that world it's so cruel and mean, no one had a happy life! but I guess that's just the way it is >_< but yet throughout all of these JK is my favourite anime and always will be... I keep it close to my heart.

JK is an anime about responsiblity and strength much like Lotr ^^ but like lotr some people will watch it and enjoy it and some people will prefer to go off and watch triple viewings of titanitic than sit through it one more time.

Yewtree wrote:JK took me on an emotional rollercoaster

This is why I called Juuni Kokki an experience. It pulls you in if you let it and you're in for the ride of your life. Some people don't like that; others don't let themselves on the ride, content to watch it from a distance. Then again, I do have a bit of a thrill-seeker in me, so I went in eyes open and arms up...

Enough of that silly metaphor...

It's funny that you said that Youko turned "mannish". Gender role is a large part of what this series comments on, and it's a bit amusing when you place your own restrictions on how Youko should act just because she's female. One of the most painful lessons Youko had to learn was that the only person that can truly force her to follow certain restrictions was herself. This is not saying that all rules are bad, though, just that only you have the final say on how you should behave and act.

I guess I can understand you're viewpoint, i've always known that in the end one of the main parts of Youko's growth is her ablity to break down the boundaries we set ourselves, I'm sorry but that's just how I saw her on my first impression and I'm not sure but is the world of 12K ruled by a certain gender?
Therefore I could then see why she would take this man-like stance (if... it is a male-based society i'm probabaly wrong but i'm just trying to raise questions here) to show her power but... wouldn't this then contradict the viewpoint that she is "outside" the boundaries we set ourselves? I'm not sure as i've never been in a her position what kind of public face one takes, you were right to point it out however (and I may be wrong on this and I should watch it again) but after Youko became Queen, I didn't see alot of her privately >_< it's quite hard to say what I mean.

I guess I am prejudiced over this but I myself being who I am haven't yet managed to realise the same as Youko (hence before about 12K changing me) so I was relating her behaviour to myself and people i've seen around me. It was probably hard for me to accept the strong character Youko becomes which probably translated itself into 'mannish'

Yewtree wrote:I guess I can understand you're viewpoint, i've always known that in the end one of the main parts of Youko's growth is her ablity to break down the boundaries we set ourselves, I'm sorry but that's just how I saw her on my first impression and I'm not sure but is the world of 12K ruled by a certain gender?

The world of the Twelve Kingdoms is ruled by the Heavens, which itself is ruled by Tentei (I think?). Tentei might have been called a "he", but I'm not fully sure that you could assign a gender to such a being. The series itself actually takes a rather agnostic look at all of this, but that's a subject for a different thread. But no, I cannot say that this world is ruled by a certain gender. Both males and females are free to become government officials or serve in the military, from the viewpoint of the heavens. Any restrictions in any kingdom related to these are only because those particular kingdoms made those decrees in their own land.

Therefore I could then see why she would take this man-like stance (if... it is a male-based society i'm probabaly wrong but i'm just trying to raise questions here) to show her power but... wouldn't this then contradict the viewpoint that she is "outside" the boundaries we set ourselves? I'm not sure as i've never been in a her position what kind of public face one takes, you were right to point it out however (and I may be wrong on this and I should watch it again) but after Youko became Queen, I didn't see alot of her privately >_< it's quite hard to say what I mean.

I really don't see how bravery, strength of will, and outward confidence has anything to do with being man-like. And fierceness isn't an exclusively man domain. You haven't seen my mother return an item to a store that's being difficult... And I don't see how this contradicts anything, since she had torn down that boundary in the first place. I had to do the same to myself, though not because I was running a kingdom. I had walled myself down a dark and deadly path, and I had to tear down those walls before things came to an end. Much like Youko defeating the monkey in episode 7, striking him down or tearing down those walls is like tearing down ourselves. It's not easy, and it hurts. But it must be done to let go of self-pity. And Youko really starts out as a blank slate when she meets the Shusei (sp?? The Traveling Entertainers).

In the third arc, the focus on Youko is lessened to focus on Suzu and Shoukei, both of which act as foils to Youko. Youko was long over her issues of self-pity, but she still had self-doubt. Yet, because the walls have already been torn down, she is able to surpass that self-doubt and become an effective queen in the end. Suzu and Shoukei, though, wallowed in the walls of self-pity until someone helped them realize the world beyond those walls (The boy that dies for Suzu and Rakushun for Shoukei).

I guess I am prejudiced over this but I myself being who I am haven't yet managed to realise the same as Youko (hence before about 12K changing me) so I was relating her behaviour to myself and people i've seen around me. It was probably hard for me to accept the strong character Youko becomes which probably translated itself into 'mannish'

Maybe so. I don't know if anything I wrote down made sense. These are themes that are harder to talk about without allegories. It took me 26 years to realize that I was just like the old Youko; doing things to make other people happy, trying to please everyone else. I really wish I would have found this out much, much, sooner, but that's part of the past and can't be changed. What I can do now is look forward and figure out my limits and even expand them.

You're right I agree with you smoky on everything you said there ^^ it's hard for me to say exsactly what I mean and about my feelings right here, so alot of this is coming out wrong >_< I won't go into which parts but let me say I'm confused over my feelings of 12k I don't know why yet it'll involve me researching and watching it all over again.

Juuni Kokki is definitely a series that touches those that view it very deeply because it truly tackles the limits and bounds of human emotions. We've all seen how survival was such a central theme, often influencing Youko, Shoukei, and Suzu's actions. Whether they be bad or good, the rational is that this is what they did to survive. I think that is something I have personally felt, I have to do this because no one will help me and I have to survive.

Although Juuni Kokki is obviously a fantasy and extreme version of realities we have to deal with. People avoid conflicts and confrontations, willing to conform not only to be liked, but to not risk getting hurt. Racism, sexism, stereotypes... nationalism, greed, self interest. Everything exists in the grey which can turn one way or the other. In many ways, we live in a world of Twelve Kingdoms, except Ono Fuyumi basically throws away the social bounds that ties us down.

What if women are not the ones that give birth? Doesn't that completely change the biological gender roles assigned by society? Wouldn't that also alter our views of our own capabilities?

Juuni Kokki is a world full of boundaries, but that does mean they cannot be changed. Anything can be changed, if you are willing to stand up for it and not cower down. Overall, I feel that Juuni Kokki is a story we can all learn from (like in the old days). It is the story of living.

Well, its late in the night so I will be brief. I have so far presented this anime to one person who just begun his anime journey and I think he showed it to his friend and girlfriend As far as I know everybody liked it very much. For general public... eh I have to try out my family then. I already know my father won't even consider wanting to touch it. My sister is quite young and already becoming anime adictee (my fault, kick me)... I don't think a 13-year old can comprehend this thing, esp. when they don't even fully understand english subtitles. I have limited time on my disposal for translating this whole thing so I really dunno, should I wait a year of two before I show this to her? Probably...

Now about the 十二国記(spelled ok?) I cannot add much more to this discussion now, I might try to add something later.

So my point here is - as many of you realized I did too - after watching the anime - the growth of a person. How (she) transformed, the pain here is greatly eased though and the transfer simplified but it is easily notable that she although gained something and learned a lot while growing up; she still had to abandon something. That is not her family or the world before. She had to abandon *her old self*. This is what I think is the hardest, since every person clings to his self. Its hard to let go, essentially killing yourself (somebody mentioned shedding ones skin, but this is more fundamental). Other onlookers can percieve this transformation as an essential change of personal character.

I know for myself that I've reached the state of awareness even before watching this anime. I know myself, what is bad. Analyzed thousand times. The point about me tho is that I am stuck at the battle with the monkey. And my monkey is particularily stubborn (while me beeing lazyass). I want to get over this but I seemingly don't want it hard enough.

This anime is great in the point that you can easily identify with character(s) there. Storyline is easy while still provoking conscious thought. (literally - entertaining art, "true" art is often boring, incomprehensible or nervewrecking) Social bounds ... still present in 12k - but not dogmatically, present only on the level that we can percieve social bonds as they really are - imposed by ourselves on ourselves. Self-stranglehold.

So sorry for my crazy rambling, its 4 am. Its just that I've just discovered this board and I HAD to write something.

jlpktnst wrote:So sorry for my crazy rambling, its 4 am. Its just that I've just discovered this board and I HAD to write something.

You know, that same thing happens to me far too often. And I have a regular job that I need to wake up at 6:30 AM for too...

Though this thread is more about views of Juuni Kokki outside Japan, I thought this might be of interest:
http://aeug.blogspot.com/2005_09_01_aeu ... 6511874971

Basically a top 100 anime of *all time* according to a survey TV Asahi did, interviewing Japanese people.

The Twelve Kingdoms comes in at 47th. Which is very good I think. A bunch of other well respected anime here doesn't even come in the top 100!

Wow! 12 Kingdoms did better than Inu-Yasha and Ghost In the Shell. Thats pretty good.
Shanonn

Well, in my view, "general public" does indeed included the Japanese. Then again, my views are less U.S. or even Western centrist than most...

And #47 anime of all time in Japan? That is quite impressive.

Though this:

85) Tom & Jerry

Made me laugh out loud...

Don't blame them though...

No 19 Candy Candy

Candice White?? I remember her.....Huh...ranked 19th in 2006! Yes, she will always be my favourite even after so many years I remember her.

Yes, the 12 Kingdoms ranked 47th and above Inuyasha is very good and I should say surprising. I wonder if this series will be time tested. I feel that the 12 Kingdoms is more like Japanese literature and not just anime/manga. As such, the 12 kingdoms should stand the test of time.

The website http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/article.php?id=7458 actually omitted no 47 (don't know why) but it gives a clear description about the population being polled.

Another surprise: Fullmetal Alchemist is ranked 20th, I would expect this to be top 5.