The Twelve Kingdoms Forum

nightchaser wrote:Also, kirin are placed with a ruler very young (Sairin was 8, Taiki was 10) and expected to work. You couldn't do that with a human child of that age - the maturity would not allow for hours of concentrated work.

Kirin get the title of Saihou as soon as they choose their ruler, and if they can find that ruler quickly that may be when they're quite young. (After all, there's a lot of pressure to keep the interregnum as short as possible to minimize it's damage to the kingdom.) However, I don't think they're really expected to do a lot of work at that point if they're too young for it. In Toei, when Taiki is complaining about feeling useless, he mentions that he's still too young to take over his jobs as Saihou and provincial lord [page 4 of chapter 4], and the king of Ren assures him that for now his job is the same as any child's - to grow up.

If you look into history, when more countries were really ruled by kings or emperors, there are quite a few instances of child kings when supposedly an eight or ten year old would be ruling a country. In reality, though, they had regents and other ministers who really ran things until they were old enough to take over their job. The responsibilities of the child with the title would generally be limited to a few ceremonial occasions and a lot of studying. My impression is that it's much the same for a child Taihou. Yes, he does start getting a few official duties, but they're kept quite limited until he's older.

nightchaser wrote:Rakushun was a huge, huge factor in Youko's good character and her growth. Remember both Youko and Shoukei say that they are better people after meeting Rakushun, and that he saved them. I keep wondering if he will turn out to be the next King Ko - but that's a different discussion and completely conjectural.

What a facinating speculation, though. I think he would make an excellent king, but there is so much predjudice in Kou against hanjuu... I'd expect there could be a lot of unrest in reaction to one being chosen as their next king. It would make a great topic for a fanfic.

beranda wrote:But! I think this is just shows us his humanity and vulnerability which are still there even after 500 years rule. I believe, personally, that they are part of the reason he's such a great ruler after all. Unlike Kou-ou or Hou-ou he never lets himself to forget he isn't perfect. He knows he's capable of mistakes and still continues to doubt himself. And his story about Atsyuu is one of the examples of that self-doubt. He conveys this thought to Youko very well and that's why you hear her declaring at the beginning of the ep.45 - "I'm the queen, chosen by heavens. But that doesn't mean i can't make a mistake!"
He never let's himself to forget his "other self" and that he can be foolish.
And Youko finally understands it herself as well.

A good emperor has to be decisive, but can't be arrogant about it. He has to recognize his own fallibility without letting concern over that fallibility make him doubt his own judgment. It's a difficult combination, and one Shouryuu appears to have struggled with many times. But he's aware enough of it to succeed in that struggle, and not let himself give in to either indecisiveness or arrogance. That ability makes for a truly great emperor, and I think it's a good sign for Kei that Youko is taking him as a role-model in many ways. Early on, he was the one who explained how important it was for her to be decisive (which she had a very difficult time with but eventually managed). Then later on he's the one explaining how a ruler can never allow himself to forget that he can make mistakes, and she appears to take that lesson to heart as well. If she can manage to balance those two lessons as well as Shouryuu has, she should have a prosperous reign, and I think she has the strength of will and spirit to do it.

beranda wrote:So, sorry, but i think that Enki was quite wrong about him at first.

One thing to keep in mind is that his idea that kings will only destroy a kingdom is something he came up with before ever meeting Shouryuu. It was the reason he didn't want to go looking for a king in the first place. So that's not really his impression of Shouryuu himself, it was simply that meeting him didn't immediately eliminate a concern he'd already had.

beranda wrote:And they absolutely adore to tease each other, just as i said, they've been able to build a wonderful bond between them. I don't know how about you, but i felt that those two have a great relationship and sincere friendship.

I really love seeing the interaction between those two. They've developed a great relationship. I suppose if you're going to work with someone for 500 years or more, it would sure help to develop a strong friendship there.

beranda wrote:Ok...Let's agree to disagree. While i surely can't claim he doesn't feel her potential after she frees him in ep.13, but ep.1...

Of course. It's another of those intriguing topics that's shown but not fully explained, so there's no clearly right or wrong answer, but it can lead to fascinating discussions.

beranda wrote:He doesn't seem to grasp the fact that she's absolutely unaware of the fact that she's taika from Kei, that he's a kirin and that she's a chosen ruler of Kei, she has no idea whatsoever what he's talking about
...
I still don't get the fact why he pushes the Suiguu in her arms and demands her to use it, without even giving it a thought that she's not able to use the sword at all! ... being the chosen ruler of the kingdom and having a great potential has nothing to do with the fact that 16-year old girl from Hourai has no chance to be a professional sword fighter, whatever her potential is.

I think these are actually a similar problem of his. He doesn't grasp the fact that she needs to be told what's going on before she can know it (just as he hadn't understood that Taiki needed the ouki explained before he could know it). Now here he doesn't at first realize that of course she would have to learn how to use a sword before she could do anything useful with it. It's as though the process necessary for acquiring skills or knowledge just doesn't seem to occur to him.

Of course Keiki himself would probably not know anything of swordsmanship. He knows this sword is a powerful weapon that only the chosen ruler of Kei can wield, so once he chooses her he expects her to be able to wield it. That she lacks the skills for wielding a sword hadn't occured to him just as it hadn't occured to him that she would lack any knowledge of what being chosen by a kirin means.

beranda wrote:It's all in the perception, then, i guess. Just as i said, i don't believe that any kirin has THAT kind of perception, never found it, not in anime and not in the novels (that i could read, that is).

As I said, it's just an idea I came up with. It stemed from wondering about that line where he said he knew from the first moment he saw her that Jokaku lacked qualites necessary to run a kingdom. I couldn't understand how he could know something like that just by seeing someone, so I began to wonder whether that's just something kirin are able to do. I haven't found anything else in the anime to clearly support it other than that one line that made me think of it in the first place. But I liked the idea because I think it fits well with their role and their other abilities, there didn't seem to be anything too directly against it, and I still haven't thought of anything else that makes that line make sense. (He's too direct and honest to say he knew she lacked qualities if what he meant was that he'd wondered whether she would have those qualites.)

Or at the very least, it makes for another of those vague possibilities that can lead to interesting discussions.

beranda wrote:

Acting on the idea that she's got to prevent those visions from coming true is exactly the wrong reaction to them.

He-e-ey! I didn't say that "doing something about it" is to run and prevent them! You're right, it'll be a great mistake to act in such a manner. But the person has to deal with those anxieties, not to hide them under the scabbard, that's all. Learning to deal with them is altogether another task and Youko's learning to do that as well, of course.

The part about needing to deal with her anxieties rather than just hide them I agree with you on. The only part I disagreed with was that these visions were things that might happen and that "if the owner won't do anything about them - they'll become his true reality." The visions as she saw them weren't going to become reality in any case. She needs to deal with her anxiety, but she also needs to recognize that it's just her anxiety and not a warning of things to come.

[quote="Niwashi2"][quote="nightchaser"]Also, kirin are placed with a ruler very young (Sairin was 8, Taiki was 10) and expected to work. You couldn't do that with a human child of that age - the maturity would not allow for hours of concentrated work.[/quote]
Kirin get the title of Saihou as soon as they choose their ruler, and if they can find that ruler quickly that may be when they're quite young. (After all, there's a lot of pressure to keep the interregnum as short as possible to minimize it's damage to the kingdom.) However, I don't think they're really expected to do a lot of work at that point if they're too young for it. In [url=http://www.otyaku.com/animeObserver/toei/toei_menu.htm][b][i]Toei[/i][/b][/url], when Taiki is complaining about feeling useless, he mentions that he's still too young to take over his jobs as Saihou and provincial lord [size=9][page 4 of chapter 4][/size], and the king of Ren assures him that for now his job is the same as any child's - to grow up.
[/quote]

Yeah I didn't explain that right. While Taiki didn't have to work a lot, he was at least present at various activities and meetings the majority of the day, including "school". I got the impression that he was kept busy most of the day with little free time, yet he wasn't actually doing anything other than showing up and watching others do the work. That was why he was so frustrated. This was where I deduced that the maturity level was higher for 10 year old Taiki than it would be for 10 year old "John". I really don't think a human child in the same situation would handle it well, and would not feel any of the empathy that Taiki was feeling. Also, he holds a very important job and he realizes that peoples lives are stake if he does it badly.

2 Quotes from "The Shore in Twilight...":
{In Risai's eyes, Taiki was just a small simple child. A powerless, weak child that just accomplished the feat of choosing a new emperor. However, that was not how Gyousou saw it. Taiki was still the manifestation of something huge and important, and he was not to be taken lightly. That was beyond a doubt. Taiki was not a child; he was a kirin. After this was explained to her – and this was not the first time she had been told this – she now really appreciated the obvious fact.}

{"Let me tell you, I don't know why on earth everyone is treating Taiho like a powerless kid. He has a Toutetsu (饕餮), you know!"
"That... is true..."
Kirins commands youma (妖魔) as shirei to serve them. A kirin can have unlimited shirei, but due to the unfortunate fact that Taiki was born in Hourai, he had only two. One of them is a Nyokai (女怪) the foster parent of every kirin, and it is not even appropriate to count it as one of the shirei. Strictly speaking, there is only one shirei, and that is a Toutetsu. It is a youma with power almost belonging to the realm of legends.
"Toutetsu, the demon of all demons. If the child holding it is powerless, then we all are nothing but babies!"
Rousan squinted her eyes, and stared straight into thin air.
"Let me tell you, your kirin... he is a demon above Toutetsu!" }

The maturity level is seen when he tames his totetsu. He has to spend several hours glaring at it with absolute concentration. It is also seen in the perception of what he is and what he will become. In the above quote Risai is being berated for treating Taiki like a kid. She keeps thinking of him as a cute little kid, when he is, in reality, a very powerful kirin (perhaps the most powerful kirin).

beranda wrote:
And they absolutely adore to tease each other, just as i said, they've been able to build a wonderful bond between them. I don't know how about you, but i felt that those two have a great relationship and sincere friendship.

Niwashi2 wrote:
I really love seeing the interaction between those two. They've developed a great relationship. I suppose if you're going to work with someone for 500 years or more, it would sure help to develop a strong friendship there.

I think the cutest scene in the whole anime was when King En had to carry Rokuta (episode 44 I think). He was feeling sick, but I think he also wanted to be close to Shouryu. And Shouryu was so happy to find Rokuta as well. They are so much like brothers that it's amazing to realize they aren't related. They fight and tease each other, then pull together when one is threatened. For all my claims of Kirin being more mature than human children - you then have times when they act exactly like human children

Just for the record, I'm not too convinced about kirins as a species (?) being more perceptive or mature than humans. There really isn't a whole lot of evidence for or really against them, IMO.

Still interesting to conjecture.

I did think about Rakushun being picked as Emperor. Nothing said that a Hanjiuu can't be emperor. I just have a feeling that Rakushun may not be totally suited to be an emperor.

zitch> ...theres no mention of half-beast being emperor in any of the 12 Kingdoms. I think they seldom hold high posts due to certain bias...as best explained by the bear half beast from Kei.

Tahki,

Hanjyuu are biased against by humans. There is definite proof of that in the anime. All posts in government except for Saiho and Emperor are appointed positions.

But there's nothing that shows that the heavens are biased against hanjyuu. The only evidence of this is the fact that there is no mention of a hanjyuu emperor. Then again, half-beasts are said to be rare.

A very interesting topic for a fan-fiction would be if Rakushun was picked to be the next emperor of Kou, complete with the uproar amoung the populace it would cause. But truthfully, I really don't think Rakushun is emperor material, dispite his wisdom and knowledge.

When Kokan (not sure I spelled that right) let the bear be a General he had to rip up the record of him being an hanjou. Rakashun ran into a problem in En when one of the instructors wouldn't let attend class as a rat, and even King En made him appear in human form while at the palace. Youko seems to have no problem with the hanjou, partly because she was befriended by Rakashun, and the bear was a very powerful ally during the rebellion.

Rakashun is definately naive in a lot of ways, but unlike a lot of naive people he is willing to learn and experience new things. He grew up very sheltered - not allowed to mix with other people he lived in the middle of the woods with his parents. Yet I do believe he could be a ruler of Kou simply because he does learn and is willing to fight for what is right. Remember he did risk his life to save Youko. This really isn't enough evidence, of course

O_O whew...it's been a very great discussion...but i think i am late? well...my opinion on why keiki is older than the other kirins who are sociable....i think it depends on the kirin on when he'she will decide that they have the enough mind...just like us...it is we wo decide when can we say we have the enough capabilities, when we think we are mature enuff...in the case of keiki, he wanted it all to be perfect...so he decided he is mature enuff when i think he is mid or late 20's.....that's why he is older....he only wanted to be a good kirin so he was not sociable at all...his mind is only on what is ryt....
but reading this thread gave me alot of spoilers...irritated and excited at the same time....