The Twelve Kingdoms Forum

Current. I've seen a documentary about some of them, including tribes with very odd language patterns(just making sounds with their tongues...)

My cynical mind suggests that a tribe and it's "discoverer" gets more fame and better treatment the more exotic it is and that the tribesmen are smart enough to take advantage of the typical anthropologist, who would much rather discover something exotic than just another group of villagers.

Mind you, I'm not basing this on any actual knowledge of the situation - I'm just making a guess based on my views on human nature.

But why would every single human group give the same treatment to women? There's got to be some exceptions here and there...

Shokou wrote:But why would every single human group give the same treatment to women? There's got to be some exceptions here and there...

There's a wide range in the treatment of women, even among hunter-gatherer societies, let alone the changes of various agrarian societies. But being shorter, weaker in upper body strength, pregnancy and childrearing, and having less testosterone, might all be good reasons why no society has had Women In Charge. Especially when one of the key things to be in charge of was warfare with other tribes or groups; war is a male-dominated thing.

Closest I've ever heard of is equality in decision making, and women being heads of households. Among the Cherokee allegedly, war chiefs were always male but peace chiefs could be female.

There's also an age thing. Grandmothers probably usually had a lot more power than young women. Often true of men as well, but young men can get importance as warrior. Young women have cultural influence on the next generation as the mothers, but they're not In Charge right now.

I'm agreeing with Mindstalk here. I'm not saying that there aren't variations and a wide range of human societies. And every society has exceptional members who go outside the bounds of what is usually permitted. I am saying that despite this, every society we know about has been unfair. Some have been better, some worse, but none have been fair to women.

It's only modern society, with antiseptic childbirth, birth control and high status work that doesn't require big muscles, that has enabled women to fulfil their potential. This is why I'm dubious about "eglitarian" tribes in the Amazon, where the big thing is to be a hunter and fighter - both of which require big muscles and lots of agression.

In the Twelve Kingdoms, of course, women don't have to worry about birth control and childbirth and, given that inter-kingdom war is impossible, being a big strong fighter isn't as highly regarded as it historically has been. The high status skills are more administrative and social. This makes the comparatively high status of women in the Kingdoms unsuprising.

Some tribes seem close to fair -- Cherokee, Tuareg, the Aka.
http://www.vancouver.wsu.edu/fac/hewlett/Introaka.html

But no known society has had "women unfair to men" in a way parallel to "men unfair to women", or "women generally in charge, men subordinate".

Jinx's addition to why 12K women would have power seems good.

I understand the points you two make.

I was thinking of societies where women are genetically able to be physically strong, and men aren't, but maybe that doesn't exist. Oh well.

Shokou wrote:I was thinking of societies where women are genetically able to be physically strong, and men aren't, but maybe that doesn't exist. Oh well.

A genetic difference means that you are talking about a different species. It would be interesting to see the society of a different intelligent species and see how and why it is similar to or different from human society - but I would be remarkably surprised to ever encounter one.

In anime, the only really interesting exploration of a race that is both genetically and socially different from humans, that I can think of offhand, is the Abh from Banner of the Stars. All too many anime aliens are only notable for the size of their breasts.

Yeah, maybe a different species like that existed or exists somewhere. I'm so sick of seeing women still being discriminated against in the Western society, even as of today, I get some thoughts like that.

And the Abh are modified humans... it's really technology+culture that makes them so different, specifically the gestation machines (aka exowombs in Transhuman Space and uterine replicators in Lois Bujold), combined with the taking genes from anyone and being single parents. Functionally they've turned into hermaphrodites: every Abh is "fertile" with every other Abh, every Abh knows their child is their child, no one is bodily tied down with pregnancy, every Abh may be tied down for some years raising the child... I assume they have some way of making proper milk since males can't nurse (and the women wouldn't, without hormones or genetic tweaks.) Plus they're high-tech so even if they retain sexual dimorphism in upper body strength it really wouldn't matter. 12K has a lot of room for difference but dimorphism would still lead to male dominance in the military.

Yeah, I just got into Crest/Banner. Hooked, but it seems an even smaller fandom (in English) than 12K.

Well, to be honest, what I really wanted was a bit more of anti-sexism content in Juuni Kokki. I'd also love it to handle homophobia, but I'm asking too much, it seems.

Shokou wrote:Well, to be honest, what I really wanted was a bit more of anti-sexism content in Juuni Kokki. I'd also love it to handle homophobia, but I'm asking too much, it seems.

IIRC, in one of the books, I think the one about Shouryuu, it was mentioned that there was a rumor that Shouryuu was gay. It was seen as a nasty and damaging rumor. Assuming my vague recolections are accurate, this implies that homophobia is alive and well in the twelve kingdoms.

Given her preference for male dress and close friendship with Suzu and Shoukei, it's possible that rumors about Youko may start. This may not be too damaging, though, because of Kei's preference for male rulers. Being a tomboy and disliking fancy clothes is politically useful for her. However if rumors start about her "liking" Hanjyuu, that could be unpleasant.

Jinx999 wrote:

Shokou wrote:Well, to be honest, what I really wanted was a bit more of anti-sexism content in Juuni Kokki. I'd also love it to handle homophobia, but I'm asking too much, it seems.

IIRC, in one of the books, I think the one about Shouryuu, it was mentioned that there was a rumor that Shouryuu was gay. It was seen as a nasty and damaging rumor. Assuming my vague recolections are accurate, this implies that homophobia is alive and well in the twelve kingdoms.

Given her preference for male dress and close friendship with Suzu and Shoukei, it's possible that rumors about Youko may start. This may not be too damaging, though, because of Kei's preference for male rulers. Being a tomboy and disliking fancy clothes is politically useful for her. However if rumors start about her "liking" Hanjyuu, that could be unpleasant.

They should have developed that theme more. Because if Shouryu was gay, I would like him even more. And in 500 years, I doubt there is a voice against his rule in En. Stupid homophobes.

And if they hate Youko for eliminating discrimination against Hanjyuus, it's like they are calling her a furry. <_< People are so stupid.

The book about En takes place (almost?) entirely in the past, 20 years into En-ou's reign. Rumors about him being gay would be then, not now. Not that I remember such rumors, and he's certainly in brothels enough.

I wish they had expanded on that: who knows, maybe he is a bisexual? I would definitely not mind, and I hate homophobia.

Ok, what?

Please don't do that. I'm not homophobic of something, but not Shouryuu.

And I thought I started this thread to talk about a picture...how did it turn into one about sexual orientation?

It's called topic drift. In any forum, there's no escape from it.

There is no evidence whatsoever that Shoryu is gay. However, by my shaky recollection, there were rumors going around that he was, at some point during his early reign. Exactly how these rumors started is unknown. Perhaps it was Atsuyu spreading them . . .

Jinx999 wrote: Perhaps it was Atsuyu spreading them . . .

That made my evening.

Seriously speaking now, I doubt it. Atsuyu is too much of a stuck up bastard with a superiority complex to lower himself to spreading gossip. All he ever wants - besides absolute power and such, of course - is to prove that he is better than Shouryuu, by challenging him and fighting him fair, whatever his idea of fair might be.

At least that was my impression on the character.

Juuni wrote:Seriously speaking now, I doubt it. Atsuyu is too much of a stuck up bastard with a superiority complex to lower himself to spreading gossip. All he ever wants - besides absolute power and such, of course - is to prove that he is better than Shouryuu, by challenging him and fighting him fair, whatever his idea of fair might be.

One of the ways to prove that you're better than someone else, at least in your own mind, is to believe nasty things about them. And I'd hardly consider kidnapping Enki to be fighting fair, by any definition. Spreading nasty rumors about your political opponents, true or not, has been part of politics for as long as we have records.

Jinx999 wrote: And I'd hardly consider kidnapping Enki to be fighting fair, by any definition.

That's why I said: "whatever his idea of fair might be".

It would be somewhat sad to actually find out he could spread those rumors. Oh, well, whoever finds that chapter is obliged to post it here.

You're giving me hot mental images involving Naotaka and Atsuyu...:3

In all seriousness, I liked Atsuyu. He was definitely well-suited to be a good leader: when he deposed Genkai, I really understood his good intentions. What ruined him was human nature, his arrogance, his desire for fame. I could understand him, and why Shouryuu always pays respect to him...man, I love that novel.

I don't know. He didn't do the right thing for idealistic, because it was the right thing to do. He didn't do it out out pragmatism, because it was the sensible thing to do. In my opinion, when he did do the right thing, it was about proving that he was better than everyone else, that he was right. I don't see him as a good man who went wrong, but as someone who was broken from the start.

He was intelligent, capable and often effective. But he was a hollow shell with no heart.

I remember when Enki talked to his father when he was imprisoned, and he said Atsuyu's flaw is his ego. That's why I thought it was the problem corrupting him. And I don't think Shoryu would see his grave every year for 500 years if he was just a corrupt leader...

I wouldn't say he was corrupt. He did not exploit his domain for his own financial gain.

He was however flawed. For all his brilliance, there was an empty space at his heart and he came apart under pressure.

For all his eccentricity, Shoryuu is a solid leader who can cope with unimagnable pressure and doesn't let reverses or problems faze him in the slightest. He's first, chronologically, seen coping brilliantly with a lost war and hopeless situation. He doesn't mind making jokes about himself, if they help his people.

Atsuyu is first, chronologically, seen having a servant executed, rather than face up to the idea that his archery is less than perfect.

Shoryuu knows what it means to be a good ruler and does it because he cares about his people. Atsuyu also knows what it means to be a good ruler, and does so because his pride demands he be nothing less than perfect. For a long time, that did actually work, but when he was faced with a choice between his ego and his people . . .

^That captures my thoughts exactly. That's why I think Atsuyu deserves the respect Shoryu pays to him yearly. He was another Shoryu, gone just a bit wrong.