The Twelve Kingdoms Forum

They say when the throne is vacant, the land falls to wastes, that's why Yoko cannot just ascend and return home. But I wonder if they mean throne is 'vacant' as in literally really empty like no one sitting on it for awhile or figuratively vacant as in the king is not ruling it. Considering Tai where the king disappeared for years (I give a rough estimate of 6 years unless someone has the exact amount), the demons began to infest it. Agreeing that he probably did not sit on the throne literally for awhile and most definitely did not help ruling.

Then there's Shoruyu (En King) who likes to disappear for periods of time and Yoko's trip to the Ei province (Skies of Dawn volume). They didn't sit on it for awhile and demons didn't infest.

There's Jokaku (Yoko's predecessor) who obviously didn't rule and demons didn't infest until much later.

So the question is: Do they mean 'vacant' literally or figuratively? Because neither matches.

They're different cases: I am pretty sure the heavens mean the land will fall into wastes if:

a) The king is away from the palace for a long time and there's no one filling in for him/the king isn't signing papers like Youko did when she was out.

b) The king is absent for a very long time, and is completely missing.

c) There's no king.

The land didn't fall into ruins in Yo-ou's case because the mere presence of the king inside the palace already greatly diminishes this effect. That was clearly mentioned by someone to Youko, I am pretty sure it was Enho.

I would say that the definition of a "vacant" throne leans more towards there not being an annointed king chosen to lead the country. After all, the King of En has a serious case of wanderlust and always seems to be just about everywhere but parking his keyster on his throne and ruling properly and yet En is one of the most stable kingdoms in that world. I'm sure part of that has to do with his having a stable court to take care of things in his absence, but I think it was mentioned in both the shore of the maze and in the book about the queen of Kyou being chosen that Youma are symptomatic of either a ruler having lost the Mandate of Heaven or of there being no ruler at all. Tai we might consider a special case. It's clear there are youma, it's clear the king is not ruling, however what we do not know is whether Tentei has decided that his Mandate is used up. Taiki hasn't gone through shitsudo that we know of, but neither is the kingdom prospering.

I thought Tai was strange. Tai didn't seem to fit. Clearly since Taiki is okay, and the bird had not cried out, it means the king is still alive? Maybe the heaven watched over them closer than they think..

On a curious side note, I thought you were a spambot(we get these a lot on this forum) and that "Thrones and questions" was an advertisement for toilets. Sorry!

Yeah. The spambots are a menace.

As for being absent from the throne, I'm not reading this as literal separation from a chair, but instead as poor government. Youma infestation is a sign of failing government. Shoruyu can go out and wander around because a) he has competent and trustworthy ministers to deal with things in his absense b) he doesn't apparently disappear for years and c) wandering around and seeing things first hand is part of his governing style.

IMHO, it's one of the traps for a king in the Twelve Kingdoms. The levers of goverment power are in the palace, but living in the palace, literally and figuratively above the problems in the kingdom is a good way to lose sight of what's really going on there.

I'd have to add d) He doesn't wander for too long because then Itan's nagging will be unshakable.

I think that a ruler who has a way to keep in touch with his people and the world below are the ones who are successful in the end, it's the one's that cloister themselves away in the palace that seem to run into the most trouble. Let's look at some examples. The previous king of Tai Kyou-ou seemed to live only for the pleasures he made in the royal court and spent his wealthy kingdoms budget dry. The previous queen of Kei also shut herself up in the royal palace but more than that in her own rooms and couldn't be bothered to run her government. The olders reighn in all of the twelve kingdoms currently is Sai (I think) at 600 years and they have an whole family, many of which go out wandering so they keep contact with the outside world that way. The king of En as mentioned really get around (in more ways than one) and his kingdom is still stable at 500 years. We don't know enough about Go Rajou of Han to know if he gets out much. So it seems that those rulers with a way to keep in touch with the world around them generally do the best.

Fact check: sorry, it was Sou, not Sai, that had the 600 year reign.

Funny it was partly due to this topic post and partly due to a dream I had that made me write another 12K fanfic. It thought the question about a "vacant" throne was an interesting one, and one that certainly applied to the situation in Tai. It made me wonder... what if due to a circumstance a rule is physically unable to take his place as king but he has a court and a kirin who are able to capably prop up the throne? That is, a court that can weild political power without in-fighting and keep the government running smoothly in the absence of the king. It is the lack of a ruler that angers Tentei, or is it a badly run government that would bring on shitsudo? That's the question that sort of prompted my next work "The Convenient Queen" which takes place in Tai some time after the events of The Shore at Twilight the Sky at Daybreak. Look forward to it please!

That does sound like a good idea! I am indeed looking forward to it: I think it will be interesting even if it also has odd pairings.

I meticulously did my research this time. With TPoS,TDT I more or less had just watched the anime googled a little bit to get the names straight (I couldn't find a copy of the book The Shore in Twilight, The Sky and Daybreak!) and started writing. With The convenient Queen i had actually read the books and short stories and really looked into how the government works before I started writing.

That's good: I enjoy the details about government management in Juuni Kokki: unlike in Hourai where it's really boring, it's actually interesting to learn about the different attributions of everyone in the palace and how they do their job.

I wrote the story partly for the, I guess you might call it, political and diplomatic manuevering. In "The Convenient Queen" The kingdom of Tai teeters on a knife-edge balance between civil war and a very fragile peace. Taiki and Gyousou were located, but the rightful king is held suspended in spelled slumber that not even Gyoukuyou can break, and the fragile Taiki was unable to lead the armies. A Royal Consort is "volunteered" and appointed to act with the authority that the Taiho cannot or will not assume. Asen was defeated but his legacy remains; the Province Lords of the North resist the fragile Royal Authority of a court led by the Taiho and the Royal Consort (who is able to assume limited duties). For all of the time that the king is held in suspended animation there have been proxy-wars waged between the southern provinces held under Golden Rule, thus cemented to Royal Authority, and the provinces of the North whose shuukou cannot be reappointed by anyone but the rightful annointed king of Tai (who is unconscious). The Six Ministries are splintered on the matter of the co-leadership of kirin and consort. The Consort and Taiho manage to keep the land from being torn apart by war by limiting the battlefeild to political and economic proxy-wars, but the situation is tense. It is at the eleventh hour that King Gyousou awakens and all look to him to resolve the situation as the armies of the northern shuukou, led by Asen, prepare to launch an attack on the Palace to settle the matter once and for all. The restoration of Royal Authority by the King, the Taiho and the Royal Consort may be Tai's last, best hope for peace.

That sounds like an interesting story: I don't have much to add other than I like its plot because civil wars are to me much more interesting than wars between kingdoms. They usually have more depth and are less ultra-nationalistic.

It's hard to play Us and Them when They ARE Us, I agree. I'll post the first chapter on an Archive of Our Own soon.

Cool: I look forward to it.

It posted at An Archive of Our Own.
http://archiveofourown.org/works/565912

It's clear there are youma, it's clear the king is not ruling, however what we do not know is whether Tentei has decided that his Mandate is used up. Taiki hasn't gone through shitsudo that we know of, but neither is the kingdom prospering.







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