The Twelve Kingdoms Forum

We find out Retsu-ou was pure in his intentions to cleanse all sin and insane in his destruction in the name of Tentei, or was he? Gekkei beheaded Retsu-ou reluctantly saving the sinners and in turn sinning to do so.
Rokuta constantly disapproves of Syouryuu as personally corrupt. Their relationship is cautious even after 500 years.

How can 12k people go forth and sin no more? What are the laws defining sin that all the people are held to aside from the laws of each ruler?

>> We find out Retsu-ou was pure in his intentions to cleanse all sin and insane in his destruction in the name of Tentei, or was he?

Yes, he was. Even if he thought he was doing the right thing in killing everyone who committed even the smallest sin, he was wrong in taking everyone's life in his own hands and not understanding (or even trying to understand), that people sometimes make mistakes. He also took the easy way out: instead of making the effort of understanding people's motives behind their actions, or giving them a punishment according to the degree of their crimes, he gave everyone the same extreme punishment (death) regardless what they did. How coud he be "pure" and still punish people who couldn't go to work because of an illness, punish a boy for stealing food out of hunger, etc? Nobody gave him the right to take Tentei's place and deciding what is right and what is wrong.

> > Gekkei beheaded Retsu-ou reluctantly saving the sinners and in turn sinning to do so.

Gekkei not only saved sinners, he also saved the lives of many innocents who otherwise would have died in Retsu-ou's hands. Certainly not everyone who was killed was a sinner, take for example the girl who was a friend of Shoukei, and her mother. Retsu-ou's put them to death because their wife told him they were sinners, but he didn't even investigate if that was really true. I'm sure the same happened to other thousands of people.

> > Rokuta constantly disapproves of Syouryuu as personally corrupt.

Syouryuu may be corrupt in his private matters, but he is a wise and kind ruler regardless of his own personal life. He does not mix his personal life with his job as an emperor, and doesn't hold a grudge against anybody who reprimands or disagrees with him, regardless of their actions or words. He knows he's not perfect, and seems to appreciate people that are able to point out his mistakes to him.

> > Their relationship is cautious even after 500 years.

I don't see their relationship as anything as cautious. They seem to be very good friends, which doesn't mean they cannot disagree from time to time (Rokuta calling Syouryuu an idiot and even hitting him on the head without any fear of being punished seems to me something a close friend would do). Rokuta seems to trust Syouryuu very much, even if he sometimes gets annoyed at him (which is something Syouryuu seem to enjoy, come to think of it... ^_^)

> > How can 12k people go forth and sin no more? What are the laws defining sin that all the people are held to aside from the laws of each ruler?

I think Tentei's laws overrule whatever law an emperor creates. Certainly killing, robbing and the like are sins no matter what country you are in, even if the emperor/empress suddenly declares that killing is legal, for example. Tentei is supposed to rule over all emperors and countries, and emperors are supposed to be merciful and to abide to his will.

Veronica
Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2003 5:13 am    Post subject:
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>> We find out Retsu-ou was pure in his intentions to cleanse all sin and insane in his destruction in the name of Tentei, or was he?
Yes, he was.... Nobody gave him the right to take Tentei's place and deciding what is right and what is wrong.

Wasn't Retsu-ou given that right by being chosen by a kirin? What are the commandments a ruler receives when they ascend?

> > Gekkei beheaded Retsu-ou reluctantly saving the sinners and in turn sinning to do so.
Gekkei not only saved sinners, he also saved the lives of many innocents who otherwise would have died in Retsu-ou's hands...

Gekkei new Retsu-ou was a better man than his actions so why not capture and convince him of his errors? Killing again is as much a sin as Gekkei realised.

> > Rokuta constantly disapproves of Syouryuu as personally corrupt.
... He knows he's not perfect, and seems to appreciate people that are able to point out his mistakes to him.

It is one thing to be perfect it is another to learn from your mistakes yet Syouryuu makes no effort and just says thanks to get people off his back. Rokuta interprets/speaks the truth of God and seems to hit En-ou with as much true reprimand as play. Perhaps we outside observers are choosing the interpretation.

> > Their relationship is cautious even after 500 years.
... Rokuta seems to trust Syouryuu very much, even if he sometimes gets annoyed at him (which is something Syouryuu seem to enjoy, come to think of it... ^_^) ...

In the time Youko arrives, there is a moment when Syouryuu is explaining he enjoys the constant conflict in ruling and would destroy the kingdom himself if it became boring. Up walks Rokuta as this is said and a look passes between them - more than "not funny" and an indication their relationship is still delicate.

> > How can 12k people go forth and sin no more? What are the laws defining sin that all the people are held to aside from the laws of each ruler?
I think Tentei's laws overrule whatever law an emperor creates. ...

Kind of like Federal law and State law in the US. But like States, the emperor is the enforcer of both sets of laws and left to judge over them in the here and now. Seems the rulers have trouble with that much power so go insane, even when they could learn from the successes of others. Are Tentei's Laws too absolute in reality causing a weakening of their enforcement into greater and lesser sins yielding corruption over time or insanity in trying to keep to the letter of what sin is?

JK Newbie wrote:Kind of like Federal law and State law in the US. But like States, the emperor is the enforcer of both sets of laws and left to judge over them in the here and now.

It's more like a monarch and dukes/counts/barons of provinces. In the States, the federal government's jurisdiction is intentionally severley weakened so it can't enforce many basic rules that were deemed best left to the states, so they could individually decide the best rules for their own constituents. Unless the States agree to give that power back to the federal government, it remains with them.

Seems the rulers have trouble with that much power so go insane, even when they could learn from the successes of others. Are Tentei's Laws too absolute in reality causing a weakening of their enforcement into greater and lesser sins yielding corruption over time or insanity in trying to keep to the letter of what sin is?

So far, the best examples of leaders we've seen have all been the types that realize their purpose is not to enforce rules but to allow the people to live peacefully. They keep their regional leaders in line, and those leaders in turn (hopefully) do what is best for all the people. Emperors who think that way are the ones that get exalting titles and rule for hundreds of years.

However, I agree that people who think too deeply about the system are bound to go a little nuts eventually. Want to improve the quality of life for your people? Great, but don't improve it too much, or you'll throw off the perfect agrarian balance. You increased everyone's livelihood and want to share with the other countries? Nice, but make sure you share equally, or you might be guilty of making alliances with the other nations. You might even be guilty of that if you do share the wealth.

The whole system is based around being happy with what you have. Anyone who can't be perfectly content is going to have trouble with Tokoyo life.

garamir
Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2003 4:54 am    Post subject: Re: Sin, or not sin...
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JK Newbie wrote:
Kind of like Federal law and State law in the US...
In the States, the federal government's jurisdiction is intentionally severley weakened ...

Both apply when it comes to rank structure. If God is a Monarch that implies physical presence and access to God in the world far more than US Federal power which is more slow and intangeable - more like 12k Tentei. Is not Tentei severely weakened by having to go through others to act on the world?

... Are Tentei's Laws too absolute in reality causing a weakening of their enforcement into greater and lesser sins yielding corruption over time or insanity in trying to keep to the letter of what sin is?
So far, the best examples of leaders we've seen have all been the types that realize their purpose is not to enforce rules but to allow the people to live peacefully. They keep their regional leaders in line, and those leaders in turn (hopefully) do what is best for all the people. Emperors who think that way are the ones that get exalting titles and rule for hundreds of years... However, I agree that people who think too deeply about the system are bound to go a little nuts eventually... The whole system is based around being happy with what you have. Anyone who can't be perfectly content is going to have trouble with Tokoyo life.

So sin is irrelevant in 12k? Are people born to be discontent? If so, how can anyone live up to Tentei's laws other than to live and die eating and laboring happy to be alive? Is that all there is to living?

JK Newbie wrote:Both apply when it comes to rank structure. If God is a Monarch that implies physical presence and access to God in the world far more than US Federal power which is more slow and intangeable - more like 12k Tentei. Is not Tentei severely weakened by having to go through others to act on the world?

Deities and governments don't really correlate all that well. In the U.S., federal laws are enforced by the federal government, with or without the cooperation of the state, while state laws are enforced by the states themselves. See the national guard stepping in to enforce racial integration in Alabama schools during the 1960s, as well as the issues surrounding states that have legalized marijuana, even though it is illegal by federal law.

In any case, Tentei seems to hold a kill-switch for the world. Emperor getting out of line or not keeping things under control? Shitsudou. Send the country back to the stone age for a few years, and bring in new management. The emperors (I assume that's who you mean by "God") can't be considered gods in the same sense -- or, rather, I don't see them that way. They have powers everyone else doesn't, but take away a hinman or a few shirei, and they're still normal people with normal problems.

So sin is irrelevant in 12k? Are people born to be discontent? If so, how can anyone live up to Tentei's laws other than to live and die eating and laboring happy to be alive? Is that all there is to living?

It would seem that way. Sin for the people doesn't seem to matter much.

For those in power, sin is failing to use their power to help the people. When Gahou abused his power to try to call down the wrath of the heavens just to see if they existed, he considered Youko's appearance at the right time to stop him the will of the heavens.

For emperors, sin seems to be disobeying the laws Tentei set about not invading or allying with other countries, governing fairly, and keeping the peace. Within their own domains, the emperors are mostly free to do whatever they want, as long as it doesn't upset anyone else or cause too much trouble.

So, yes, I do think that 12k life is all about being content with what you have and not trying to rise above your station except perhaps by becoming a public official through influence or years of schooling.

It would seem that way. Sin for the people doesn't seem to matter much.

Well, remember that 1.) Tentei destroyed the world once before because the people were corrupt, even though the emperor at the time was a pure man (this is relate when Youko is travelling with the theatre troup) and 2.) the kirin are described as "forgiving sins" (when En-ou explains it all to Youko). I think the issue here is that this is an epic story and that personal sin is irrelevant in matters of royal policy, rather than it being the case that Tentei just plain doesn't care.

garamir
Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2003 9:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Bliss or sin?
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JK Newbie wrote:
Both apply when it comes to rank structure. If God is a Monarch that implies physical presence and access to God in the world far more than US Federal power which is more slow and intangeable - more like 12k Tentei. Is not Tentei severely weakened by having to go through others to act on the world?
Deities and governments don't really correlate all that well. In the U.S., federal laws are enforced by the federal government, with or without the cooperation of the state, while state laws are enforced by the states themselves. See the national guard stepping in to enforce racial integration in Alabama schools during the 1960s, as well as the issues surrounding states that have legalized marijuana, even though it is illegal by federal law.

Perhaps the sins of a government are being confused with the intended design and function for the welfare. Like in 12k, there is fuzziness in taking action against an emperor - years pass and tens of thousands dead before Tentei slowly ills the kirin which in turn results in more loss of time and life. From all the descriptions of ranking and enforcement, it seems the author meant to explore the best balance of the power of God’s will to the reality of daily living - that perhaps Tentei was guessing again and it is up to the current living to make it work even when Tentei has no answers. Sounds like a functional government more responsible than feudal, the religious edict is the Constitution.

In any case, Tentei seems to hold a kill-switch for the world...

Many religions believe this planetary reality is another test by their God(s) for mankind to make it right after previous failures. Mostly a metaphor for the downfall of a ruling civilization into lost memory. As Galadriel said, and so the battle with Sauron passed into memory, then legend, then myth, only to be lost from memory (historians have found usually a minimum of a thousand years of time does that.) Would not Tentei have given up long ago with all the wanton loss of life if that were the edict of major sin? Yet Tentei sends Youma and environmental stresses to take more life. Death and sin is all 12k has to look forward to.

Quote:
... Sin for the people doesn't seem to matter much.
For those in power, sin is failing to use their power to help the people...

Perhaps the powerful need other distractions than abusing the people. What is their motivation for abuse except boredom?

For emperors, sin seems to be disobeying the laws Tentei set about not invading or allying with other countries, governing fairly, and keeping the peace...

How can they succeed since their govenors seem to go mad? The arms of the emperor cannot reach everywhere, and the kirin are impractical as governmental agents.

So, yes, I do think that 12k life is all about being content with what you have and not trying to rise above your station except perhaps by becoming a public official through influence or years of schooling.

Shame. Purposeless.

jmc
Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2003 11:17 pm    Post subject:
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Quote:
... Sin for the people doesn't seem to matter much.

Well, remember that 1.) Tentei destroyed the world once before because the people were corrupt, ...

What caused the people to fail then and potentially now? The threat of death is a daily problem so ultimate death must be an afterthought. Humans at all levels in 12k do not seem to learn or care to learn about living simply. Perhaps the author is warning us through the stories of 12k of impending natural disaster (act of God) by our neglect to take action. So how do we insist on the correctness without sinning to do so?

and 2.) the kirin are described as "forgiving sins" (when En-ou explains it all to Youko). I think the issue here is that this is an epic story and that personal sin is irrelevant in matters of royal policy, rather than it being the case that Tentei just plain doesn't care.

Hard to say with translation clumsiness what phrases mean out of context. Even skilled Japanese readers find the kanji and use of old language styles very hard to understand fully. You did catch a good point in the anime dialogue that kirin may well be Tentei’s eyes and ears and in some way interpret sin between God and emperor. Although, some kirin we’ve seen so far seem emotionally and socially immature and highly susceptable to compromising when faced with a manipulative emperor.
If this is just an epic adventure dictated by the author then the conditional nature of sin is moot. However, if the author means to produce an allegory of human survival by exploring the possible outcomes of civilization with Tentei as the symbol of natural law, ultimate yet distant, then the importance of sin as crimes (of greater and lesser degree and committed by whom) becomes critical. If the people are free to sin and the emperor is just middle management who takes the blame, how can the emperor ever sanely control the willingly sinning masses?

JK Newbie wrote:If this is just an epic adventure dictated by the author then the conditional nature of sin is moot. However, if the author means to produce an allegory of human survival by exploring the possible outcomes of civilization with Tentei as the symbol of natural law, ultimate yet distant, then the importance of sin as crimes (of greater and lesser degree and committed by whom) becomes critical.

I suspect the former rather than the latter. It's a great romp through a magical kingdom where a girl can become empress and fight for her beliefs. Since the concept of sin is never taken beyond the shitsudou, I doubt the author meant to focus on it as a primary theme.

If anything, I assume that it's simply borrowing from the old traditional Chinese government as a convenient starting point for the story.

If the people are free to sin and the emperor is just middle management who takes the blame, how can the emperor ever sanely control the willingly sinning masses?

Not everyone lives just to sin, and not all mistakes or unappreciated actions are worth calling "sin" in 12k.

To take a page from Rousseau, government exists because the people all give up some freedom so their other freedoms won't be trampled by jerks. The leader is responsible for helping the people, so if an emperor can't find trustworthy governors and ministers, he or she has failed as a leader to protect the people from corruption.

But not all of the blame can be stuck on the emperor -- if there really aren't any trustworthy people, minsters or otherwise, who can rule the country, then a righteous emperor isn't going to do any good. He or she would be working against the will of the people.

I think I was leading into something with all that, but I can barely see straight at the moment, let alone formulate coherent ideas.

Note - thanks for making the effort to respond thoughtfully. Sorry for the brain fatigue.

garamir
Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2003 9:54 am    Post subject: Re: the importance of sin in 12k
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JK Newbie wrote:
If this is just an epic adventure dictated by the author then the conditional nature of sin is moot. However, if the author means to produce an allegory...
I suspect the former rather than the latter... concept of sin is never taken beyond the shitsudou,... If anything, I assume that it's simply borrowing from the old traditional Chinese government ...

So it’s not an Asian LOTR w/application...? I suspect you have read the books and know for sure. Darn, would have been nice to have fun and learn too.

JK Newbie wrote:
If the people are free to sin ...
Not everyone lives just to sin, and not all mistakes or unappreciated actions are worth calling "sin" in 12k.

Of course. Just seemed the importance of not sinning was driving many actions of the high but not the low. Crime was sin and law was based on it. To save the world from recycling by Tentei, the laws governing sins, aside from environmental (land, weather) variations, reasonably would be converging through communication with successful emperors and be refined. Guess the Chinese government of old was a story of disaster - good for telling cautionary tales only.

garamir wrote:
To take a page from Rousseau, government exists because the people all give up some freedom so their other freedoms won't be trampled by jerks. The leader is responsible for helping the people, so if an emperor can't find trustworthy governors and ministers, he or she has failed as a leader to protect the people from corruption.
But not all of the blame can be stuck on the emperor -- if there really aren't any trustworthy people, minsters or otherwise, who can rule the country, then a righteous emperor isn't going to do any good. He or she would be working against the will of the people.

To govern is to meet the people’s needs, sin or not, even when the sin could result in retribution from Tentei? Perhaps that is the function of the kirin, to forgive the sin-crimes reluctantly, to a point. Is it that people need to be convinced that complacency is best for survival? No individual needs matter over the needs of the many? Such a basis would explain why 12k has little or no technology and a severe rank and class structure.