The Twelve Kingdoms Forum

Something peculiar has come to my attention. I'd like everyone's opinion on this.

I've found that most everywhere I go Juuni Kokki is an unheard of anime. Usually a few select people have seen it amoungst many. I'm talking about the general fansub watching community. This is on anime forums, file sharing communities, and IRL. However, the fansubs have been released for over a year. One would think this anime would be more popular. I base this reasoning a lot on my opinion of the anime. I see Juuni Kokki as one of the top five anime of all time. So far I've seen episodes 1-39 and a lot will have to happen to change my opinion. Hence, I see this anime as a rival of Evangelion, with a story as good as Berserk's or Rurouni Kenshin OVA. The few people who have seen this anime have given it its due marks at animenfo.com. However, it just doesn't seem to be enough for an anime of this calibur.

I've come up with two possible reasons for this. One, my judgement for this anime is too overestimated. I somehow doubt that being that I've seen fifty different anime already and have a good base to compare to. Two, there was little or no hype for this anime when the fansubs were released.

Any explanations are greatly welcome. This has been bothering me for a couple weeks. I've known about Juuni Kokki for less than three weeks, have watched it twice, and already want to watch it again.

Frankly, wondering about this is a waste of time. There are any number of reasons why it's not as popular over here; genre, marketing, general availability, too long, too cerebral, too dependent on 'alien culture' folklore, whatever. I think it's almost entirely subjective. Sure you and others here may feel it's "one of the best animes of all time" - but to argue it from that standpoint is pointless much like some people argue Dragon Ball Z is the best anime of all time (which I've never seen), or that Eva is the best thing ever, etc. Your post is really "why isn't this as popular as it should be?", and it's not a very good place to start a discussion, IMO... and 50 is nothing. ;D

A better place to start is - What can fans and MB do to make it MORE popular? I think the cultural basis of the entire 12k universe tends to be alien to Americans. Prince of Tennis, on the other hand...

On the side, I saw the trailer/preview-thingie playing on the overhead tv screen at the Mall of America's SunCoast store... That was a treat.

This is just my opinion, so feel free to jump down my throat if you'd like, but it probably won't change much about it.

I think it's not "popular" right now for two reasons

- Marketing. Honestly, I haven't *seen* a lot about this anime in the states at all, even though Media Blasters kind of has it as it's centerpiece right now. I'm not sure how they could solve this issue. It's just really underexposed.

- The Twelve Kingdoms is too "mature." Anime that is really popular tends to be stuff marketed to teens and pre-teens, and Juuni Kokki definetely takes a lot more commitment, attention, and appreciation for subtelty than your average action and/or romance oriented shallow little puff piece.

Of course, that doesn't account for the popularity of things like NGE or even something like Escaflowne, but most of the "serious" anime that gets really popular seems to have some kind of gimick..like robots or magical girls, etc. Juuni Kokki's "gimick" seems to be in it's setting more than anything else. I guess more people are interested in robots and magical girls than culture and politics, unfortunately.

I just recently find out about Juuni Kokki. When It came out on a anime kraze. Ever since then, I been hook on it, even though I haven't seen 5-15 . I just say that it need to be out more beacause it was license pretty quick; or was it? I think fansubbing does help promote anime in america. People like to see what they are buying.

Animal4890
Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2003 3:05 am    Post subject: Juuni Kokki, the unknown
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... I've come up with two possible reasons for this. One, my judgement for this anime is too overestimated. I somehow doubt that being that I've seen fifty different anime already and have a good base to compare to. Two, there was little or no hype for this anime when the fansubs were released. ...

The anime gives the impression of richness and depth of storyline though the character acting is plain, perhaps so not to distract from the action and to save money. Ultimately the storyline never feels clear, as if the audience was assumed to be long-standing fans. The subs are a noble attempt to bring the story out of the language yet the anime is so sketchy, only readers of 12k could possibly understand the effort put into the anime and all the book references are only quickly stated. After reading what translations there are, the history and power begins to make sense. The English versions of the books should have been done first or concurrently with the anime release to have a resource for viewers to refer to.
Artistically, consistant except for a few episodes. Animation, sparingly good, usually typical for today’s expectations. Marketing, poor (no money).

oion
Ningen
Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2003 4:10 am    Post subject:
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... A better place to start is What can fans and MB do to make it MORE popular? I think the cultural basis of the entire 12k universe tends to be alien to Americans. Prince of Tennis, on the other hand...
On the side, I saw the trailer/preview-thingie playing on the overhead tv screen at the Mall of America's SunCoast store... That was a treat.

Not all us Amur’kans are rednecks and uncultured. We just don’t have the 12k books in English to inform us of the story depth. When I saw the trailer at SunCoast, I was sad for the lack of production on the trailer to help sell the significance of the anime.

Lauren
Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2003 4:11 am    Post subject:
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Marketing... It's just really underexposed.

Costs big money. They should have had the books translated first so that could help build support for the anime. As well, no chance these official websites can do an English version? Babblefish doesn’t translate flash and image animation/text.

The Twelve Kingdoms is too "mature."...

Yes and no. The anime doesn’t take the time to explain itself so it could be understandable. It implies the books have been read and the anime is just a quickie visual of them. Even a kid would love to follow an interesting story is they could follow the depth by reading the books or having the anime use drama/acting, scene choices, and tight scripting to put more information onto the screen.

I guess more people are interested in robots and magical girls than culture and politics, unfortunately.

Some people are, because those anime are clear in their intent (sell, sell, sell). Other anime are eye candy for the fantasy-prone. Yet other anime are true ventures into artwork and animation innovation, not meant for everyone. 12K has the potential but it has to compeat and not be so stingy with the artistic design (unless that’s all the staff are capable of). The strength of Japanese anime is in it’s ability to produce a consistant product with some depth of storyline, and in my opinion, with cultural lessons.

Marketing you say. From the US distribution standpoint, I'm assuming this is very true. The representative of MB at Anime Expo in NYC didn't leave much of an impression. He looked as though he hadn't showered, nor was very well informed on the future of JK in the US. Yet, isn't MB based in NYC? I thought I would've seen tons of advertising for JK at the con being that the first volume was released, yet there was barely any.

I don't think the target market for JK would be very limited in the US. It's nowhere near as intense as Eva was. There very little blood and sexual content. It's cultural basis and deep story would be more of a draw IMO. Kids might get hooked on anime like DBZ or Sailor Moon, but after ahwile I think they would prefer a more interesting anime.

After everyone spoke so much about how there isn't much explanation for the basis of the story in JK, I wonder if I know enough about it to truly say that I understand it well. There are many times throughout the anime where the anime's story is summarized as well as the structure of the politics and religion that runs the Twelve Kingdoms. With that you can atleast get a feel of it, but is there something I missed? Would the manga add a lot to the anime?

My extreme interest in this anime might just be due to an infatuation with it. Right now I'm watching Scrapped Princess, Stellvia, Tenshi na Konamaiki, and Ghost in the Shell - Stand Alone Complex. Although they are all very good anime, I don't consider any of them to be of the same class of anime that JK is in. Is my judgement distorted or is this just the usual anime biasing most enthusiasts employ. I mean, Tenchi Muyo OVA is my favorite anime. It was a fun and adventurous fantasy type anime. Although it was more comical it has some similarities with JK.

I agree with you 100%, Animal. IMO, JK is easily one of the greatest and most compelling anime works that I've come across (and I've seen at least 100 different anime series, OVAs, and movies).

And no, I haven't read the novels, but the 12K story, as presented in the anime, was quite apprehensible to me.

Costs big money.

Some banner ads would've done the trick. Or, heck, just mentioning it in their convention panels as more than "that show we're alternating with SDK."

They should have had the books translated first so that could help build support for the anime.

I don't know if that's really an option for them. It's one thing subtitling anime. It's another translating whole novels into English. Del Rey was thinking about it, but I don't remember hearing any official commitments. It's probably for the best that MB holds off until someone with the resources to do a good novel translation can do so. And, honestly, I don't think the novels would draw many more viewers to the anime. Rather, I'd expect the reverse.

As well, no chance these official websites can do an English version? Babblefish doesn’t translate flash and image animation/text.

Uh... http://www.12kingdoms.us/12KING.html is the official site for the R1 release. I see the Flash file still isn't sized properly.

Right now I'm watching Scrapped Princess, Stellvia, Tenshi na Konamaiki, and Ghost in the Shell - Stand Alone Complex. Although they are all very good anime, I don't consider any of them to be of the same class of anime that JK is in.

I think the difference is the scope. Scrapped Princess has really held my interest with strong production values and an interesting premise. GitS:SAC is an excellent action/police/tech show (I mean, it's GitS) with an excellent budget. Last Exile is also pretty darn good.

But all of those end when their series end. 12 Kingdoms is the only one that has such a large territory to cover that it can pull out 45 episodes and have everyone yelling, "What?! They're not doing more?!" Add to that the fact that each arc has been carefully planned in this series. Filler episodes are rare and in character. The whole show fits together very well. Few series can claim that.

On a side note, if it's Tenchi you like, the new OVA finally -- FINALLY -- came out recently, with the next one on its way in two or three months. Sadly, the review on AnimeOnDVD was mixed.

garamir
Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2003 9:32 am    Post subject:
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Quote:
Costs big money.
Some banner ads would've done the trick. Or, heck, just mentioning it in their convention panels as more than "that show we're alternating with SDK."

Suspicious indeed. More like too much effort to continue, and/or production failures, and/or not enough fan fervor in the time it’s been released. Nowadays, companies expect the Net to carry the word-of mouth advertizing and that has been poor as well.

Quote:
They should have had the books translated first ...
... It's probably for the best that MB holds off... And, honestly, I don't think the novels would draw many more viewers to the anime. Rather, I'd expect the reverse.

Translate books first since it does take longer, then release them simultaneously or shortly after the anime as a resource. By having the book translations available, the production company would have less translation labor. It may not mean much since the struggle was said to be in the extensive rewriting to make Youko as the central character.

Quote:
... English version (of official website)?...
Uh... http://www.12kingdoms.us/12KING.html is the official site for the R1 release...

Ah... That’s relatively new and for the R1 only. It’s a (late) start, again, if they are still planning to build US sales.

garamir wrote: I think the difference is the scope. Scrapped Princess has really held my interest with strong production values and an interesting premise. GitS:SAC is an excellent action/police/tech show (I mean, it's GitS) with an excellent budget. Last Exile is also pretty darn good.

But all of those end when their series end. 12 Kingdoms is the only one that has such a large territory to cover that it can pull out 45 episodes and have everyone yelling, "What?! They're not doing more?!" Add to that the fact that each arc has been carefully planned in this series. Filler episodes are rare and in character. The whole show fits together very well. Few series can claim that.

Scrapped Princess has been really enjoyable, and I think Last Exile is a truly excellent anime. And, I also agree with your statement that 'all of those end when their series end' ... but also in a different sense. After watching those anime, I don't really take anything away with me once the credits finish rolling. I don't feel a deep bond to the characters and I'm not all that strongly moved by most of what happens in the story. Yet, for the Twelve Kingdoms, I don't feel so empty when I walk away ... perhaps it is because, as immature as many of the characters are in the beginning, they grow up ... and it feels like they're taking you along with them.

I just want to add that GITS:SAC has been extended to 52 episodes. Yes. Another 26 episode season is in the works for them.

*SIGH* The wonders of a large budget and plenty of manga-based material for them...

to be honest. I don't think GITS-SAC is very good. Actually, it's kindof boring. I expected better than it is right now or atleast close to the quality of the movie.

Codex, I agree with you (except that I'm not too enamored of Scrapped Priness); JK moves me in a visceral sense like few, if any, animes have, principally due to the richness of its story and the complexity of its characters.

Last Exile is a wonderful and brilliantly animated anime (how much did Gonzo spend on this series?) that suffers somewhat from the presence of a few simplistic and one - dimensional characters (e.g. Maestro Delphine) as well as slightly sluggish character development. And GITS: SAC is at times well - written, compelling, and surprisingly profound; however, it lacks significant character development. IMO, neither anime is nearly as engaging as JK.

I like GiTS:SAC for the plot and the scene, I did not expect much character development. It's like a really good cop show, with cyborgs and politics and morality plays all in great detail.

I thought shows like Scrapped Princess, Last Exile and even Stellvia to some extent have a problem of having cookie-cutter characters to be memorable. You basically have a feel for what the characters will do and what direction the plot will take because you seen it many times before in past shows, although with slight variations. To be honest, JK started off like this as well with the similarities to Escaflowne and all the other 'girl from another world' type series but the important thing is it quickly develops away from that, and I couldn't be more happier.

The question of why JK is not more popular is puzzling. Virtually everyone I have talked to who has seen the series has really liked it, even those who are usually very critical. I can think of a few reasons though as to why it is not more well known.
1) The point about poor advertising is true and probably negatively affected the series' popularity.
2) Another is its unfinished status. Many people who I have talked to who had heard of the series but not watched it, where hesitant to start it because they had heard it was unfinished and/or had a poor ending.
3) The scope of the story is also a deterrent. The beginning of the anime is confusing without knowledge of the rest of the series and does not work to quickly draw an audience in. I first watched the series at my local anime club. If I had not been coming to meetings to watch the other series I would have dropped the series within a few episodes. It was not until well into the series that the full depth of the story began to unfold and the series became understandable and can be fully appreciated by the audience. I wonder if some people who sample the series give up to quickly.

Marketing is always the number one reason why a series will never get out (unless theres some amazing word of mouth going on). Its no surprise that JK was overlooked by the masses. Its sad that this series never got the attention that it should of.

The comment about the anime first few chapters is probably true. A lot of the information that is shown to us in the first few episodes can be confusing, and only the people who tread through at least the first 7+ episodes will see that it was a convension used by the producers (we the audience are learning about the world at the same pace as Youko)..

Another reason could be the plot itself. The "person from another timeline/dimension" is an overused storyline. So many people lose interest before realizing that this show is well crafted and 1000 times better than other animes that use this plot line.

Well first it depends on the person watching it if they will like it or not. I personaly was introduced to this anime on the second disk not the first I had no intention of getting it on my own. I believe a major turn off is that the first disk is kind of dull. Most of the trailors are filled with the exciting footage comes from the second disk. I believe that another thing that the anime is quite deep and some people don't really like that kind of thing. ^_^

I believe there are few issues make the anime not so popular as other animes. First, there are really lots of new terms for audience especially hard to understand and remember for non-asian laungage system (even i read it in chinese, i sometimes forget these terms) and most ppl donnot like to put much attention on remembering words. It's an anime, but a billrian anime that ppl who want to understand should sometimes think, the more deeply you think, the more intrese u'll get from it. futher more, the anime contains too much culture things that without knowing some curtain background, you may miss understand a lot. For example, the education system is from aceint china. and what a kirin simbolize in real world.(while they are not like a deer-horse like thing in chinese myth)
At very last, maybe the first few esopices are so boring that they gave up.......

I was just introduced to this anime not long ago through my local tv. Never did I thought this anime will ever top my favourites list. At the beginning when I watched the the first episode, honestly I wasn't too impressed. I had no idea what this "12 kingdoms" mean and the opening and ending had absolutely no clue to what this anime holds. The setting was dark and had an average start. As it goes on I got more confused with the terms used.. and especially Azura.

However, I continued watching and after episode 7 when Youko finally thought it through, "defeated" Azura and brought to light, that's when my interest in Juuni Kokki really began to rise..

I'm really glad that I continued watching because it's so different from the other animes and rocks big time ^^. Anyway back on topic, For me, I think it was the starting few episodes that turn off people. The OP and ED didn't reveal much about how the story will go. When people don't understand and don't see anything worth watching, they could just simply turn off the tv or doze off.. like my bro did =X [but he's back watching =)]

After being through 38 episodes for me now, I think Juuni Kokki is a big test of the audiences' patience. I'm so happi I didn't miss this =DD