The Twelve Kingdoms Forum

question:

are the hou and kou emperors stupid or something? they said that they did what they did for the sake of the ppl.... didnt they stop and think when their kirin got sick that maybe... just maybe that they are doing something wrong?

It's hard to say that the emperors are just stupid for ignoring the signs -- the ones we've seen so far seem rather dim, but it may be a result of other factors. Kou-ou obviously wasn't thinking rationally. He believed that the Kaikyaku would cause the downfall of his kingdom, and he desired whatever mystic influence he believed kept En-ou from falling prey to his own insecurities. I get the impression that he was already on a downward slide.

Hou-ou, though, was simply trying to run a tight ship. The message seems to be that he was too removed from the people and couldn't see the results of his actions. His executions were carried out quickly, and he may have wanted to cut his losses to return his kingdom to its previously propserous state. How long had he ruled? If it wasn't very long, he might also have the excuse of inexperience. Perhaps his kirin wasn't forceful enough in making the plight of the kingdom known before she fell victim to the shitsudou.

Ironically, Keiki may end up causing the opposite reaction because he's too serious. He pushes Youko hard, and she tries to push back to establish herself as a just ruler. She believes that Keiki is biased toward kindness, so she might ignore his advice and be too strict to try to compensate... or perhaps just to spite him. He'll bring the shitsudou down on his own head. This whole story arc worries me. ^^*

Then again, I find the whole system rather odd in the twelve kingdoms. You rule until you become unjust or step down... but who, as an immortal, would step down while they are still a just ruler? En-ou has ruled for 500 years, and others have similar long reigns, but it seems that everyone is set up just to fail eventually. Would the mark of a Meikun be the ability to see when one's judgment is starting to fail and retire?

At least, that's what I've been thinking.

Last night, I was thinking that there's the possibility the system is designed to find the perfect balance of rulers. That is, if you could get one ruler that could always stay in tune with the will of Tentei and the people and everything else, then that ruler could stay in power forever. And if you could keep doing that forever, you could eventually end up with a perfect balance of twelve rulers that would beable to create the perfect kingdom.

Somehow, I don't think that would really happen, though, even if it was in keeping with the theme of the show.

tentei, seeing how you're god, that would means you've been stressed since the beginning of time wouldn't it?

FWIW, here's my take.

I think Kou-ou knew pretty well that he was acting against Tentei's will; he just didn't care by then. At one point he says to Kourin that his rule is failing (ep. 11? -- I think his words were actually to the effect that his reign was at its limit). My impression from the way he said it, was that this decline had started before Youko even came into the picture. Kou-ou also has, as Garamir points out, that resentment/jealousy towards Taika (like En-ou and Youko) because he thinks they possess some special quality that makes them more successful. Untimately, Kou-ou seemed to figure that if he was going to go down soon anyway, that he would at least make sure that he'd deep-six Youko's reign so he wouldn't be upstaged in the history books by yet another Taika. Kind of petty, no?

As for Hou-ou, I think the guy was just too narrow-minded. He had one idea of what was the "right" way for he and his people to live, and he wouldn't brook any deviation from this. Also, he was too blind to see that he was also being manipulated by people like Shoukei's mother (lying so that rivals and people she disliked would get executed). I'd bet that Hou-ou was the type to to see Hourin's shitsudou as a sign that he should tighten the screws further -- i.e. that he wasn't doing enough to purify Hou's people. He prob'ly never even considered the possibility that despite good intentions his methods were completely wrong.

Oh, and Garamir: don't worry, Youko'll straighten out eventually. She's just temporarily slipped back into "iincho" (class committe chair) mode, where she's simply trying to please everyone, rather than follow Rakushun's advise to do what she thinks is right. It's just that she's been thrust into a position where she just doesn't have enough info yet to make proper decisions. It also doesn't help that some of her advisors may not exactly be providing good or ...ahem... unbiased advice (trying to avoid spoilers here ^_^; ). Then again, Keiki _is_ a little too stiff for hsi own good.

Actually when I watched chapter 23, I already guessed how the thousand miles of wind, sky of dawn saga would end. After watching chapter 39 I'm really satisfied and repeated it over 5 times . Can't wait for the subbed vid to check those bits that I didn't undestand.

I'd say a lot of things about Youko and what will happen but, the series already established many facts that indicates Youko is most likely a Meikun and will make Kei a prosperous kingdom form many years to come. Besides if she's the sort of main character in the series, why let her die so early?

Atosryac wrote:Oh, and Garamir: don't worry, Youko'll straighten out eventually. She's just temporarily slipped back into "iincho" (class committe chair) mode, where she's simply trying to please everyone, rather than follow Rakushun's advise to do what she thinks is right.

Oh, I know they'll straighten everything out in the end. It's just annoying to see her forgetting the lessons she's learned so far and running right back to her old self. No wonder the Suiguutou's so antsy right now.

*shakes fist at all the people who went ahead and watched raws*

a curse befallen you and your raw-watching ways!!

garamir wrote:Oh, I know they'll straighten everything out in the end. It's just annoying to see her forgetting the lessons she's learned so far and running right back to her old self. No wonder the Suiguutou's so antsy right now.

Heh, well , I don't really blame her. She's been thrust into a position of authority with inadequate information and with questionable support staff, and at times it seems like all sides -- including Keiki who's supposed to be her ally -- are pressuring for decisions yesterday. It's all too easy to fall back on one's learned defense mechanisms (in Youko's case, becoming more passive & conformist) when under fire.

Haha, and I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who watched ep 39 multiple times. I'm sure I had a stupid grin on my face all thru the first 10 minutes of the episode, first time thru.

since we're on the topic of raw watching:

if any of you guys feel you can understand enough of JK to help out 12ktp with their work, let me know. Find me in [BLEEP]

My usual nick is chibi-pan or rakucho. thanks ahead.

*shakes fist at cheating raw watchers*

hmm seems jk has returned full circle, we are back where she use to be, the unwilling leader of a bunch of rowdy people.

aar! where do you people get the raws?!

Asano has come.... and Asano is completely nuts

Is there is a cautionary tale about a ruler who listened to their Kirin way too often? I've seen many instances of advising against that because Kirins are merciful by nature, too much so that it becomes a danger to a stable rule. But what we've seen so far are rulers who did not listen to their Kirins enough or at all, and look what happened to them.

I wonder if the illness is really a curse or just the Kirin's body disagreeing with the atrocities committed by the ruler? Are there other signs of Tentei's disapproval besides Shitsudou no Yamai?

It really pleases me to see that I'm not the only one who triple analyzes this series. ^_^

Let me just say that this arc is by far my favorite! (so far)
They just keep getting better and better. Hmm about the shitsudou, well I don't think it's the body breaking down because of the Kirin's nature. It's that they lose the will of the Heavens (Tenmei). During the ritual of receiving Heaven's blessing (Tenchoku), both the Kirin and newly ordained emperor enter a contract with Tentei (The Senseki). When their actions go against the will of the Heavens, Tentei pretty much nullifies this contract. The contract is also what gives them immortality. Notice how a Kirin continues to grow/mature while it is at Mount Hou. As soon as they complete the ritual, like in ep 19, they cease to age. Could also be why the Kirin is taken care of so much, while it is maturing. Still vulnerable and such.

Just like Tentei here, I can't wait either to see this arc subbed! But, what is killing me is that no more 12 Kingdoms episodes will be airing until July!!!!!!

Now Shinkun, there's something that will need a good explanation in the future. They mention that a Kirin stops growing after it matures, or according to you after the Tenchoku. Taiki still grew to an highschooler age.

Another thing that I noticed is that every kirin that was raised in Mt Hou seems too naive and sometimes even a lack of strong emotions. A good example is the Kirin of Ryou and Keiki. Whereas Rokuta and Taiki that grew up in Hourai act like normal kids. Do anyone thinks that their concept of justice, mercy and ethics differ or were affected by their lives with a real family?

@__@ all you damn guys and your damn logic! just let me enjoy the freakin series!!! however, if you must break down the series into analytical parts, i've noticed that there really are a lot of people who dives deep into the series and ask alot of questions. Glad to see you guys enjoying the series so much (makes my distro work so much more meaningful.)

In regards to:

[drifterx: Are there other signs of Tentei's disapproval besides Shitsudou no Yamai?]

yes, there are other signs. For example, if Tentei bans you from the forum, you can also take that as a hint he disapproves of your actions. mwahahaha!!!

True, true.

I'll try not to piss him off. I guess that means decapitating fellow users for stealing rice is out of the question.

Well, if you brighten his mood with a little dinero, I'm sure he'll be willing to overlook a few beheadings or two...Muaha

And the more complex and wonderful the series, the more fun it is to analyze it. *analyzes the heck out of RahXephon <3

I know the answer to the Taiki stuff but I won't mention it here becase it is a MAJOR spoiler. I only know because of the novels. If you want to know, read the novels or msg me on IRC

Kamui wrote:Another thing that I noticed is that every kirin that was raised in Mt Hou seems too naive and sometimes even a lack of strong emotions.

This may be intentional. After all, the kirin is supposed to be the perfect servant for the emperor, following eir orders no matter what. If the kirin has strong emotions, there's the chance of it failing to do its job, either by refusal or simply by hesitation.

But then, the kiri seem to develop with time. Taiki already knows what normal life is like, but Keiki has to figure out how not to stomp on his mistresses. All of them have to find the balance between their own personalities and their duties.