The Twelve Kingdoms Forum

I hope someone on this forum can answer my question. The problem is the translation of the show. I could check the broadcast with english and russian subtitles - but the problem is that they differ. So far, the english subtitles seem to be more to the point, as the subtitles in russian sometimes are simply a bit confusing.
I understand, though, that the english translation is a bit lacking as well.
Right now the question is about episode 39. When Enho talks about making the new scabbard for the sword, Youko says no and explains why. Now, in Russian it's translated like this: Sometimes it's shows me things i don't want to see. This is my soul! I don't want to hide my soul.
In English it's a bit different (though the meaning is almost the same)and along the lines: It shows me what's in my mind! I don't want to put a sneath on my mind!
Which of the translations is closer to the original?

carmolita wrote:the closest thing to the japanesse exact translation is the chinese translation afterall from what i understand the japanese language is made up of some chinese

Japanese has a lot of loan-words borrowed from Chinese, but grammatically and in the way ideas are expressed they're completely different. They aren't even in the same family of languages. You can't really trust the presense of loan words to make translation more accurate. (Especially since loan words don't always retain the same meaning they had in their original language.)

carmolita
Again, thank you for trying to help, but i'm still a bit confused.
I have no knowledge whatsoever in Japanese or Chinese, so i don't understand what you or the others are talking about.
I also noticed that English subtitles are more accurate (at least, they make more sense) than the Russian once. BTW, i love this scene as well. That's why it's so important for me to understand, which word or expression's used in Japanese. I know what they are talking about, i wasn't exactly quoting it. I just wanted to clear for myself if Youko mentions here her MIND or SOUL?!
Again in English it sounds like this: - I don't need a scabbard to put a sneath on my mind.
In Russian: - I don't need to hide away my soul.
Which one is closer to the original Japanese text?
Sorry for being such a bugger.

i think that the "I don't need a scabbard to put a sheath on my" is where English is better than Russian, but i think "soul" (or "heart" as I've seen it translated) is a better rendition than "mind". I'm no japanese expert, though

beranda wrote:I also noticed that English subtitles are more accurate (at least, they make more sense) than the Russian once. BTW, i love this scene as well. That's why it's so important for me to understand, which word or expression's used in Japanese. I know what they are talking about, i wasn't exactly quoting it. I just wanted to clear for myself if Youko mentions here her MIND or SOUL?!
Again in English it sounds like this: - I don't need a scabbard to put a sneath on my mind.
In Russian: - I don't need to hide away my soul.
Which one is closer to the original Japanese text?

I finally got around to re-watching episode 39 last night, so I can give a try at answering your question. (Well, this made a good excuse anyway . It's one of my favorite episodes of the series.)

First off, you need to keep in mind that when it comes to such nebulous concepts as "mind", "heart", "spirit" and "soul" there isn't really a one-to-one correspondence between words in different languages because the underlying concepts are different between different cultures. Well, here's what I can come up with anyway.

In the original Japanese, that line says:
心に鞘は要らない
kokoro ni saya wa iranai

心 kokoro - This word seems to be the crux of your question. The most common translation for this word is "heart", but the Japanese concept seems to be a bit broader than the way western concepts compartmentalize it, so it could really mean "heart", "mind", "spirit", or "soul", (which of course is what leads to the difference in translations you've seen). Choosing which of it's meanings to use in an English translation can come down to looking at what it refers to, in this case the visions Youko's seen from the sword. Since I think they show more of what she thinks or feels than they show who she is, I like either the translations "mind" or "heart" better than "soul". In fact, since "heart" is the most basic meaning of "kokoro", it's probably the word I would use in any situation where it makes sense, as I think it does here. (p.s. By itself "kokoro" means "heart" in the emotional sense, but combined with another character for organ it also means heart in the biological sense.)

に ni - A grammatical particle indicating proximity. Usually "at", "in" or "to", although in this context "on" may be the best English equivalent. (note: Japanese particles refer back to the preceeding word or phrase rather than forward to the following word or phrase as in English, so "kokoro ni" would be "on the heart" or in this case "on my heart".)

鞘 saya - sheath

は wa - A grammatical particle indicating that the preceding phrase is the topic of the sentence.

要らない iranai - "don't need" (or it could be "don't take" but in this context I think "need" sounds better.) From 要る iru ("need") and the suffix -nai making it negative.

Put together, that literally comes out as "[ I ] don't need a sheath on [ my ] heart."


p.s. I'm no Japanese expert either. I'm just learning it.

I'd have to say, beranda, thank you for asking this question and thank you to Niwashi2 for the explanation.

I did wonder a bit about this since the fansub used "heart" and the DVDs used "mind". In the end, I ended up agreeing with the DVDs that "mind" was a better word to use here since "heart" implies emotion, whereas "mind" implies thoughts that bring out those emotions. In this case, she doesn't want to sheath her thoughts, thus the use of mind. This is not to say that "heart" would have been inappropriate here though. Though it isn't as accurate, IMO, "heart" tends to be a more powerful word in English than "mind".

Either is much better than "soul" or "spirit".

Carmolita, I think you're right about the section on the illusions. I haven't watched episode 10 in a while, but illusions are considered to be more in the mind than in the heart. I think now I agree with you and Zitch that Media Blasters' decision to use "mind" was probably the best choice here.

carmolita wrote:a translator would say that in english the japanese text is translated as "a sheath is not needed for the heart"

Except that that changes it from active to passive tense. The verb in the original is "to need" rather than "to be needed". It's literally, "As for a sheath to the heart, <subject> doesn't need." The grammatical subject of the sentence was left out because it's clear from the context that she's talking about herself. Japanese is more flexible than English in being able to leave out any part of the sentence that are clear from context, so a lot of Japanese sentences have implied rather than spoken subjects, (especially when the subject is "I" or "you").

Heh, I just realized that I didn't really add anything new to what carmolita said... lol. At least I learned something though. I had completely missed the connection between this scene (one of my many favorite scenes, by the way) and that scene between Youko and the Emperor of En in episode 10 in the 8 or so times I've watched this series. Should have been really obvious too... lol... So thank you to carmolita!

Wow!
carmolita
Niwashi2
zitch
Thank you so much for answering.
Now, come to think of it...I understand the problem. You see, in Russian the word "mind" isn't usually used to describe this thing that Youko tries to express to Enho.
"Mind" is more...m-m-m...Well, in Russian the meaning of the word is closer to the word "brain", or, "intelligence". That's why, i guess, the translators choose the "high" translation, which, ultimately is closer in meaning to the Japanese expression - in Russian it's always expressed as "soul" or "heart". But, "soul" is of better use here, as in Russian the word convies not just emotions, but also the thoughts and the essense of the human being, while, as i said already, "mind" has a more resticted meaning. It simply won't sound right.
That's why they couldn't even translate the title of the movie "A Beautiful Mind" literally. It didn't feel right.
So, in this case, both English and Russian translation are right.
Thanks for bringing up the issue of the 10-th episode. I missed it at first as well.
Yesterday had a day off work. Try to guess what i spent it for.
Each time i rewatch the series i'm even more amazed how wonderful and meaningful they are, despite the flaws. Episode 39, of course, is one of my favorites, as well, but i can't really find any episode i don't like here.
It still perplexes me, how powerful can a scene turn out to be, while it actually depicts a simple conversation between the people sitting at the table. Youko doesn't move a finger or raises her voice, noone else in the room also doesn't do anything extraudionary (well, Guokou prostrates herself before Shouhaku), but seeing Enho for a second trying to grasp what he's been said...Just to think of it, he was asked once to make the scabbard for the Suiguu by one of the greatest kings of Kei (and they tell us earlier that he left the palace after quite a short time, and since then never stoped criticizing the royal court) to help the owner to gain the complete control over the blade. That means that this, considered by everyone as a great ruler, king wasn't that great at all in Shouhaku's eyes. So for him, to hear from unexperienced, 16 (or 17) years old queen-taika, from whom he asked at first "just try not to make the things worse", the words, he, no doubt, was so desperate to hear from the ruler for hundreds of years...You can see how amazed this old man is, so that he even doesn't try to respond to her, he simply raises his hands to thank the heavens. But all the preceeding episodes contribute to the power of the moment, it has an enormous build-up which shouldn't be missed (just as i mentioned, the Shouhaku's legend, which is told us as if by the way, the developing relationship between Enho and Youko, who was clearly not that happy at first to take upon himself the task of educating Kei-ou, especially after what she's done to his puplis)...
But the funniest thing is that among all the Kei's officials, the first one, who understands that Youko's indeed a great ruler (well, more precisely, has all the potential to become one), is Shoukou! Even before the legendary Shouhaku. Talk about the irony...

beranda wrote:...Now, come to think of it...I understand the problem. You see, in Russian the word "mind" isn't usually used to describe this thing that Youko tries to express to Enho....

Languages are such funny entities. They rarely ever translate directly.

...Just to think of it, he was asked once to make the scabbard for the Suiguu by one of the greatest kings of Kei (and they tell us earlier that he left the palace after quite a short time, and since then never stoped criticizing the royal court) to help the owner to gain the complete control over the blade. That means that this, considered by everyone as a great ruler, king wasn't that great at all in Shouhaku's eyes. So for him, to hear from unexperienced, 16 (or 17) years old queen-taika, from whom he asked at first "just try not to make the things worse", the words, he, no doubt, was so desperate to hear from the ruler for hundreds of years...You can see how amazed this old man is, so that he even doesn't try to respond to her, he simply raises his hands to thank the heavens.

Wow... something else I almost missed. Enho, though a very wise man, is still human. I saw this immediately when they were looking down at the injured boy and he wonders aloud whether it is better to just pick up farming and weapons rather than teach, and she responds that he is spreading the seeds of wisdom. But I didn't link that to him actually disapproving of what the people thought of as a great king because he didn't want to see his darker side reflected in the sword. I'll have to pay attention to this the next time I watch it!

But all the preceeding episodes contribute to the power of the moment, it has an enormous build-up which shouldn't be missed (just as i mentioned, the Shouhaku's legend, which is told us as if by the way, the developing relationship between Enho and Youko, who was clearly not that happy at first to take upon himself the task of educating Kei-ou, especially after what she's done to his puplis)...

Exactly. For a well known movie analogy, Luke finding out who his father was in the original Star Wars movies wasn't all that powerful in itself, but because of all the moments that build up that scene. It really seems like a silly scene without all of that context. This is really the power of good storytelling.

But the funniest thing is that among all the Kei's officials, the first one, who understands that Youko's indeed a great ruler (well, more precisely, has all the potential to become one), is Shoukou! Even before the legendary Shouhaku. Talk about the irony...

Well, excluding Keiki, this is very true...

I've found that irony is all over this series. The more obvious example is Shoukei and Suzu crossing paths with the Queen of Kei without realizing it. One of the more subtle ones is Asano in the third arc. Some viewers ask what his role was then, but his role actually tells its own moral (which *is* spelled out by Youko!).

Another irony I stumbled apon is when I was describing the themes of the story to somebody. When I mentioned "Facing one's destiny", I thought about it and realized that Youko never actually "faces her destiny!". What she does in the third arc, she doesn't do because she *had* to. She actually takes the trangessions done personally, and acts on it. She fulfilled her "destiny", yes, but she bypasses the facing it stage in a manner! And in a matter that is often thought of as wrong for leaders to do! I ended up retracting the "facing one's destiny" theme because of this. Well, I hope this makes sense...

carmolita
Now, come to think of it, i'd like to check this issue as well, but i saw the 10-th episode with english subtitles, because i had to choose the language(it's digital sattelite tv), and i already noticed too much problems with Russian translation.
Maybe, if they'll re-run it one day...

zitch
Well, i don't know if i can claim this theory of Shouhaku relationship with that ancient king is 100% true, but i think i picked up enough clues through the episodes to think it is. Please, rewatch them. You'll see, how both Kantai and Kousho tell his story and mention that Shouhaku disappeared within a short time from the court and how his school never stoped to critisize the court and officials. Of course, i can't say for sure what exactly his opinion on that Tatsu-ou(sp?) was, but by those bits of information AND his reaction to Youko's words...i think you can understand what happened. Youko was forced to face her darker side, because unlike that king, she had no idea what that scabbard ment and she lost it. You can still see that even after becoming a queen she's desperatly looking for and easy way out - to fix the scabbard, wich means simply covering the prolem instead of dealing with it. But ultimately, pushed to a wall, she has to deal with it and in doing so discovers herself and the true meaning of the sword. Being the great ruler doesn't mean NOT TO HAVE YOUR DARK SIDE. It means to be able never to forget it, face it and deal with it. And this is exactly what Youko learned to do.
It took me at least 4 viewings to catch, and only after i noticed there's no unimportant things mentioned in the show - every bit of information is important.
Though, i have no idea how this sidestory was dealt with in the book. Should be interesting.

Returning to that 10-th episode, you can hear the story of the sword from the En-ou and he admits, that he heard this story from another Kei-ou a couple of generations ago. That means that this was exactly the same legend which was passed on between the Kei rulers since Tatsu-ou, who actually subdued the sword. (another clue for you ) That if you're not strong enough, the blade will show you endless illusions, so you have to seal it with the scabbard-the monkey. But we already know, that the sword never showed to Youko meaningless illusions, even when she was "weak and pathetic". It's only that the monkey tried to manipulate her with their help. But the blade always showed her the truth - she simply didn't know what to do with it.
The sword doesn't have any extraordinary killing powers - there're a lot of weapons, that can kill youma and sen-in as well. And for all those Kei rulers (and how many of them actually used it as a weapon?) it was just a symbol, an imperial sacred regalia of Kei, which they dragged along for the official ceremonies. Oh, yes, it could show you things, but sometimes they were so weird and unpleasant, so who needs to see them anyway?
Thus, the true meaning of the sword and its true power was lost on the rulers since Tatsu-ou, who, apparently used it only when it was comfortable for him to see. Why else would he demand from Shouhaku to seal the blade with the scabbard? What was it? The lack of wisdom and understanding? Or simply the lack of courage? We can only guess...
But the true power of the sword was in its blade - it never mattered, if the ruler was weak or strong from the beginning! It never tried to confuse or manipulate it's owner, it's just showed him the truth that was inside him. This is the most powerful weapon any ruler can ever have, and only Youko finally understands it.

zitch
Sorry, decided to devide my post into two parts. Otherwise it'd be quite hard to follow...

Well, excluding Keiki, this is very true...

You mean, that Keiki is the first one? Well, he's certainly the only one who actually has seen Youko before her transformation (i don't mean just physical) and, to put it mildly, wasn't particularly thrilled about his new choice. While they show it in anime, in the novel he's even harsher with Youko, calls her a fool and "stupid woman" not just once, and openly wishes for her to abdicate (she doesn't understand what he means at the time).
And according to the anime (it's still an untranslated part of the novel), he had lost any hope he'll ever see her again, because he knew that Kou-ou was after her life and he was pretty sure, as well, that this girl has no chance to survive.
Of course, when he finally sees her again, he understands that she has changed, but i doubt that he understands her true potential even then.
Yes, you can tell through the episodes how his feeling towards Youko gradually changes. Those are beautiful moments, when he suddenly kneels before her in her bedroom and pleads to let him handle her problem - you can see how surprised Youko seems to be, and that means he never did such thing but at the official ceremonies. You can tell that this comes from the heart. It's a wonderfull scene, when they look each other in the eyes and finally start to understand each other. Or, when he bows to her on the cemetery - she doesn't even see it, she stands with her back to him, and once again, he does it simply because he wants to, out of sincere respect.
He starts to really like her and respect her, but i'm still not sure he even dares to think she might a great ruler.
That is, untill the legendary Shouhaku himself openly declares it.
But that's just my opinion, maybe i missed something here.

Um-m... And sorry, i lost you a bit on your last paragraph. What do you mean about Youko facing her destiny and more?

beranda wrote:You mean, that Keiki is the first one? Well, he's certainly the only one who actually has seen Youko before her transformation (i don't mean just physical) and, to put it mildly, wasn't particularly thrilled about his new choice.
...
He starts to really like her and respect her, but i'm still not sure he even dares to think she might a great ruler.
That is, untill the legendary Shouhaku himself openly declares it.

I wish I could remember which episode the scene occurs in, so I could re-watch it and get the quote right, but there was one point at which he talked about his first impressions of her. They were originally talking about how kirin know who the new emperor/empress is, and he spoke of the previous Empress (the one who went mad and killed the women at the palace). He said that even when he chose her, although he knew she was the rightful empress, he also knew she was unstable and might become a bad empress. Youko then asked Keiki what his initial impression was when he first saw her (Youko). He said that his first thought was that she had the potential to become a truly great empress.

Now, perhaps there were points after that during which he wondered why he had thought such a thing, or when he wondered whether she would be good at the job he'd chosen her for. There's certainly points at which he gets frustrated at things she does or decisions she makes. But then as the story goes on and she starts to mature, he begins to see that his initial impression had been right. That he'd had that positive first impression qualifies him as the first one to see her as a great ruler.


[EDIT: I guess I should refresh the page before replying to it. Carmolita already covered the only point I had to say, and did it better (since I couldn't remember which episode it was in). Oh well. Thanks for the episode reference, carmolita. I'm going to re-watch that one.]

He said that in the last episode of the Sea of the Wind Shore of the labrynth. I don't know what the episode number is. I think they were on the turtle cloud travelling from Mt. Ho to Kei.

carmolita

I think the blade doesn't necessarily show her the truth/ only the truth

Let me disagree. Maybe i didn't express myself that well, what i ment is that Suiguu never lies and never confuses its owner. It shows the truth, not just from outside (like, future or past) but also the hidden truth inside the ruler. Sometimes it's pleasant, sometimes it's downright scary. Yes, Youko mentions in ep.39 that it shows her the things she'd like to see - and that's definitely one of the things the sword does. It can show you things you'd like to see - like when Youko wanted to know what happened between Keiki and Joukaku, or why Kou-ou wanted to kill her.
And sometimes it spontaniously shows her the scary vision of herself, ending her life the same way as Joukaku - those the things she doesn't want to see, but she can't control it (just remember how scared she is after the ceremony, throwing the sword away). But this is the truth within her mind - the sword just reflects it. And it's not accidential either, this is a warning. Again, the sword doesn't try to scare or confuse her - it tries to help her to face herself. That's why it shows her all of a sudden the reflection from her childhood, and this is, i think, the first time that she finally understands what it tries to say to her.
All the other rulers simply put the scabbard on the sword in such cases, dismissing those illusions as meaningless. But they are not meaningless and they are not accidential, they happen for a reason.
Fortunately for Youko, she can't seal the blade and thus she has to face herself.
And yes, in Asano case she understands once again that the sword never lies and never tries to please her. Once again - it simply showed her the truth.
Of course, all those things is just my humble opinion, but that's what makes a great discussion.

Um-m...About Keiki... This is in ep. 20.
Yes, i saw it a number of times.
And do you know what? I still happen to disagree on the issue.
Yes, he openly admits that he didn't think that Joukaku will make a great queen.
And yes, he says to Youko that he thought...He takes a breath and says..."I thought, perhaps"...And Youko insists him to continue! "That you PERHAPS have the potential to be a great ruler".
Come on, don't you see how she grins on that CAREFUL remark of his?
This chapter talks a lot about how Keiki learns to think about the feelings of the others. Lady Gyuokou scolds him in the face that telling people the truth isn't always the best way to behave.
Now, what i felt from this conversation after recieving the Tenchuko is that Keiki can't lie. He's a kirin, after all. But he learned already that telling the truth and nothing but truth can really hurt the person and he has a chance to ruin the relationship with his queen. Whatever you can say about Keiki - he's not stupid afterall.
It's quite clear in ep.1 that he isn't thrilled about Youko, but he has no choice. In ep. 13, when they finally meet again, he understands that she's changed for the better, but it's doesn't change anything about his feelings in ep.1! And part of his joy isn't because he wanted to see Youko so much again. It's because he sees his QUEEN alive, he doesn't have to open the new search and wander around for another year, seeing his kingdom sinking to deeper despair. And you can tell how he pressed on her to go to mt. Hou to recieve the Tenchoku as soon as possible, to ensure the stability of Kei and shut down all the possible rebellions or pretenders.
She has changed fore the better? Fine, it's like the additional icing on the cake.
I'm not claiming for sure that now, in ep.20 he doesn't think she has a potential. Maybe, after ep.13 he starts to see it, though i'm not utterly convinced, but yes, as i mentioned in my previous post, he starts to understand and sincerely respect her as a person. And you can see it in ep.27 during the conversation in her bedroom, after which he gives that order to Hankyou.
But she asks him about his first feelings (ep.1) out of curiosity, and hears how he struggles to give her a tactful answer. This is indeed, a very "politically correct" and elusive answer, imho. He can't admit now, and especially not in this particular moment, that he didn't think highly of her. So he doesn't lie, but he doesn't give her a direct praise either.
That's why she chuckles - because she clearly understands his confusion and appreciates his attempt not to hurt her feelings.
I, again, personally, think, that if he really saw her potential immediately - he would've come with a clear and assured response, Youko wouldn't have to pull the answer from him.
I thought this is actually a very beautiful psyhological moment, very true to the characters.

By the way, about Joukaku...I also has something to say about her and other rulers. Keiki says that he immediatly saw that she had no qualities to be a great ruler. But! One has to wonder if it's all that simple.
I also strongly suspect, as i stated earlier, that his feelings about Youko were not that different (but, i see, i'm in minority here )
Can any of you imagine, what would become of Youko if Keiki's rescue mission wouldn't fail at the beginning? What kind of ruler would she be if she wasn't forced to go through hell, to face her demons and pushed to the limits simply to survive? And do you think it was a simple coincidence that she lost the scabbard?
Joukaku had a relatively simple life, she was brought to the palace by Keiki and she never left it. Her life was never threatened, she had none of the problems Youko had to face.
Yes, she felt in love with her taiho, was unstable, didn't care about the kingdom, gone mad, etc.etc... But she was also able to sucrifice her life to save Keiki. Not many rulers were able to do such thing (only Sai-ou) and most kirins were destined to die, once they've got Shitsudo.
So? Did she really never has the potential? Or maybe she simply never had a chance to discover it, as Youko did? She was a chosen one - maybe there is always a reason behind the heaven's choice and she had all the potential a ruler needs, but was never forced to discover her true self?
One has to wonder if the things were as simple as Keiki and others describe it afterwards...

I kind of see it in two ways:

1. The Dalai Lama (spelled that wrong, I know) is chosen by using various signs and birth dates. They choose a small kid and raise him into the position. I wonder if the king is the same - the heavens use these signs to find one person who fits without looking too much at what kind of person they are or can become. This has a lot of holes, but could be modified to fit with a little effort. Perhaps there are a lot of people who fit the proper signs and the heavens go down the list until they find someone who fits. I'm going to bring up Atsuyu here because he was, according to King En, supposed to be king instead of him. Well, it's a suspicion of his anyway - he can't prove it. Anyway, the kirin at the time was also unable to find the king and died in his thirties. So Atsuyu fit the necessary qualities, but missed out because of a few key points. Either he didn't fit the heavens lists on one or two main points and when Enki met him he had no revelation, or Atsuyu actively prevented Enki from meeting him (this sounds hard to do given his prominent position). So Youko and the previous queen were chosen, but Atsuyu (who was a proven ruler) was not.

2. An old fairy tale: An old man fears he will not be around to see his two sons marry, have jobs, and he will be unable to give them guidance. He is rich, and also wonders which son to give his money to. He therefore calls both to him and gives them an equal amount of money and tells them to come back in one year. After one year they both come back. One a rich man and one a poor and bitter man. The poor son accuses the father of favoritism and accuses his brother of cheating.
The point: All the kings chosen have the same potential in the beginning, but some choose (yes choose) to use that potential to be desctructive.

I also find it interesting that the rulers and kirin who have had to work the hardest in early life seem to do better than the ones who lived an easy life.

nightchaser and beranda,

I didn't really mean to imply that I definitely thought that Keiki was the first to know, but there are clues that Keiki could have realized her full potential before her confrontation with Shoukou. Completely excluding Keiki though just makes your statement definitely true, but it really doesn't matter in the end, does it? It is still an irony.

And something else came to mind. The phrase "God works in mysterious ways" is often used by the Christians in my area to explain why certain things happen (or is a complete cop-out, depending on your point of view... ). But I do believe that this is an underlying theme in this anime, especially when looking into the emperor choosing process. It's not the Kirin that chooses the king, only the medium though which the heavens make the choice. And I make this point because I know a few people that didn't like the system because of the crappy emperors that were chosen through this method by the "all-knowing" heavens. It may be that the heavens do this because the people occaisionally need to be reminded what true suffering is. This might a social comment the author is trying to make on western society. As ya'll commented, the kirins that suffured when younger tended to have better success with their emperor, and emperors that suffered before taking the throne tended to be better.

Or I can be completely reading this wrong and putting too much thought into this, but this is quite a bit of fun!

ADD: Blah... and I forgot the obvious. Remember what the Empress of Sai said to Suzu before sending her off?

beranda wrote:And sometimes it spontaniously shows her the scary vision of herself, ending her life the same way as Joukaku - those the things she doesn't want to see, but she can't control it (just remember how scared she is after the ceremony, throwing the sword away). But this is the truth within her mind - the sword just reflects it. And it's not accidential either, this is a warning.

It's not accidental, but neither is it truth. It is what's in her mind, and that's important for understanding herself, but what's in her mind isn't necessarily what's going to really happen. In order to make use of the sword's visions, she needs to be able to distinguish which ones are true from which ones aren't, and doing that requires a great deal of self-awareness. The sword's visions can either come from what really is or is going to happen, or they can come from her own hopes/fears/concerns/etc, so only by understanding and coming to terms with her own inner thoughts can she learn to differentiate the true visions from these reflections of herself. I also think she probably needs to be able to do that before she can directly control the visions and make the sword provide true information when she's looking for it.

beranda wrote:Again, the sword doesn't try to scare or confuse her - it tries to help her to face herself. That's why it shows her all of a sudden the reflection from her childhood, and this is, i think, the first time that she finally understands what it tries to say to her.
All the other rulers simply put the scabbard on the sword in such cases, dismissing those illusions as meaningless. But they are not meaningless and they are not accidential, they happen for a reason.
Fortunately for Youko, she can't seal the blade and thus she has to face herself.

This part I agree with you on.

beranda wrote:And yes, in Asano case she understands once again that the sword never lies and never tries to please her. Once again - it simply showed her the truth.

In this particular instance it showed her the truth, but she still hasn't perfected her ability to distinguish the true visions from the false ones, which is why she didn't know it was true until she saw it for herself. (She may have thought it was a true vision, but still been somewhat unsure of it. Then her relief could be partially at having correctly judged this vision when she's still perfecting her skill at doing so.)

beranda wrote:About Keiki...
Yes, he openly admits that he didn't think that Joukaku will make a great queen.
And yes, he says to Youko that he thought...He takes a breath and says..."I thought, perhaps"...And Youko insists him to continue! "That you PERHAPS have the potential to be a great ruler".
Come on, don't you see how she grins on that CAREFUL remark of his?

Careful or not, there's still a clear distinction between knowing that Joukaku didn't have what it takes to run a kingdom, and that Youko could have the potential of being great.

(Incidentally, that he knew both of these as soon as he met the person, I think speaks to kirin having an ability of judging people's worth. I think kirin as a species are far more perceptive than humans, an ability that makes sense to go with their role in the choosing of rulers.)

beranda wrote:That's why she chuckles - because she clearly understands his confusion and appreciates his attempt not to hurt her feelings.
I, again, personally, think, that if he really saw her potential immediately - he would've come with a clear and assured response, Youko wouldn't have to pull the answer from him.

That ignores the great difficulty Keiki has in expressing himself. That's the major theme of his whole appearance throughout this arc of the story. This is the one time where he gets directly asked his feelings, and it's by the person those feelings are about. Of course he would have a hard time answering such a question. He's probably never even asked himself that before. It certainly doesn't suggest that he's trying to figure out how to lie without lying. It sounds like he's trying to figure out how to express his true feelings the way he kept being told he needs to. Youko chuckles because she recognizes what a difficult time Keiki has when asked to express himself so openly.

beranda wrote:Can any of you imagine, what would become of Youko if Keiki's rescue mission wouldn't fail at the beginning? What kind of ruler would she be if she wasn't forced to go through hell, to face her demons and pushed to the limits simply to survive? And do you think it was a simple coincidence that she lost the scabbard?
Joukaku had a relatively simple life, she was brought to the palace by Keiki and she never left it. Her life was never threatened, she had none of the problems Youko had to face.
...
Yes, she felt in love with her taiho, was unstable, didn't care about the kingdom, gone mad, etc.etc... But she was also able to sucrifice her life to save Keiki. Not many rulers were able to do such thing (only Sai-ou) and most kirins were destined to die, once they've got Shitsudo.
So? Did she really never has the potential? Or maybe she simply never had a chance to discover it, as Youko did? She was a chosen one - maybe there is always a reason behind the heaven's choice and she had all the potential a ruler needs, but was never forced to discover her true self?

Actually, I think Joukaku and Youko are similar in a lot of ways. They're actually both a bit unstable when first chosen. When thrust into an unfamiliar world, Joukaku goes mad with jealosy and Youko goes mad with paranoia. They both eventually manage to see beyond their madness, however, and see what damage it has caused or could cause. Then they both seek to correct or avoid such damage.

I don't think the difference is so much in Joukaku not having gone through as much as Youko, as the fact that she had power too quickly. If Youko had wielded the power of an empress when she was going through her initial paranoid phase, she could have caused as much damage as Joukaku did or more. But because she was cut off from that power, she had time to overcome her madness before it could cause much damage. I think Joukaku's transition was, for her, just as traumatic as Youko's, but she already wielded the power of an empress while she was going through it. Like Youko, she also eventually overcame her madness, but by then the problem had already advanced to the point where the only way she could correct it was by abdicating.

As for Keiki saying that Joukaku lacked certain qualities necessary for ruling a kingdom, I think that while she may have lacked some qualities, there's others that she clearly had. She had the self-awareness to see what damage her madness was causing, the strength of will to pull herself out of that madness, and the courage to do what was right to take care of the damage she'd caused and help those she cared about. All of those qualities she shared with Youko and are probably why she was chosen in the first place.

The difference, the quality Youko had and she lacked, was in how broadly she could spread her concern. Even at the end, "those she cared about" was limited primarily to Keiki himself. I don't think she abdicated so much to help the kingdom, as to keep Keiki from dying of shitsudou. Youko was able to care about the entire kingdom as a whole and seek the good of every individual in it. That's really the quality that made her a better person for the job than Joukaku, and explains the difference in Keiki's initial reactions to them. (Incidentally, it's something that comes up in the show as a quality of other good rulers. What was Shouryuu's line to Kouya? Something to the effect that he's greedy and won't settle for a million satisfied subjects if he could have a million and one.)

The Kirin are perceptive, but I don't really know what to think when you say they may be more perceptive than humans. They certainly mature faster, and may not have the same desires that could bring down a human. We have really only "met" three of the kirins. Of them we have Enki who nearly betrayed his King because he didn't trust rulers (20 years after he became king) and still doesn't really trust him (my opinion), Keiki who doesn't seem to have been able to form any kind of "friend-to-friend" relationship with anyone until he met Taiki, and who did not believe Jokuta and Youko had the qualities to be a good ruler based on a first impression in two different stressful situatins. Taiki, just seems to be a precocious little kid who worries constantly (I wonder if Kirin get ulcers).

So - Enki was wrong as En has been stable for 500 years.

Keiki did not form any friendship with Jokuta before or after she took the thrown leaving her lonely and alienated from everyone in the court. Lady Gyokujo even berated Keiki for that in Episode 15. I wonder if this left her so starved for attention that she went overboard when Keiki finally did become friendly with her. I don't think it was Keiki's fault that she did this, but it appears that his lack of initial friendship was the equivalent of telling her she was a looser as a queen and "why should I bother with you". Basically making his fears a reality by superimposing them onto her. He has an inability to form relationships himself and this, I believe, coupled with her obsessive personality was disastrous.

Remember in Chapter 20 when Keiki tells Taiki that the revelation is irresistable and even if you do not like the person you must follow through with the heavens choice of ruler. He also says that he does not regret choosing Jokuta as ruler. Remember at this time that she has yet to turn "evil" (for lack of a better word). I wonder if this means he doesn't like Jokuta, but he doesn't regret choosing her beause he had to follow through with the revelation.

When Keiki meets Youko for the first time he is not impressed by her at all, and basically tells her she can abdicate later and he would be all the happier for it. The words of a very disgruntled Kirin. Yet Youko becomes, perhaps, as great as Tatsu-ou. He seems to expect perfection and is very bitter and dissapointed that he doesn't see it right away. I wonder what kind of person would have given him his expected first impression.

Taiki - well I'm not sure he had any clue what he expected. But he seemed to think that Gyosou was going to make a mistake and followed him around everywhere until he was convinced that he had chosen a king. He seemed the most trusting, but I think he would have preferred to have Risai be the ruler.

What a great discussion! Thank you all so much!
The only downside to all this is that i have to write my posts for hours...My poor English...
zitch
Hey, i wasn't trying to imply you're wrong about Keiki. For all i know - this is just MY interpertation of the things.
I just wanted to start a discussion and was throwing an opinion.

It's not the Kirin that chooses the king, only the medium though which the heavens make the choice.

Exactly! Which brings me to another point - i don't believe that Kirins are actually able to judge the real potential of the ruler. They don't decide anything. They are, kind of there, simply to express the will of heavens and to help to guide the ruler.
I agree also with nightchaser about kirins and Keiki, in particular.
Keiki - well, he's smart, we know. And he always speaks his mind, or, at least, tries to. This is not the most pleasant character trait socially, but for a smart and strong ruler it's a blessing. But, while, as a kirin, he posesses some magical powers, he can't judge the people better than any other smart human. Kirins can't see into other humans hearts, they are not gods. That's, again, what I, personally, understood from the series.
Great point also about other kirins. We see that Enki is wrong about his king and he's quite reluctant to admit it - there is this hilarious line En-ou throws passing by his kirin and officials: "You can't see a great ruler even if he's stuck under your nose", or something to that point. It's stressed a number of times through the series, that Enki sincerely believed that his king will ruin the kingdom. It doesn't make him right, though, does it? Only after that rebellion Enki starts to understand his ruler better and they manage to build that wonderful bond between them. So what if they like to punch each other from time to time in public?
What i was also trying to say...Keiki's opinion on both Joukaku and Youko...whatever it is...It's just his opinion. It's not some absolute divine truth from the heavens. Him choosing them as queens is. But nothing more.
That's why, after giving it some thought, i started to think about Joukaku a bit different. Just because Keiki claims that she had no potential doesn't make it fact. We know that ultimately she was capable of a great deed. She'd made a choice and gave up her life to pay for her own mistakes. Yes, i believe that she and Youko were quite close in spirit. It's just that Joukaku instead of discovering her true potential decided on an easy way out - sinking to the pit of self-pity and self-indulgence. A bit reminds you of Suzu, doesn't it?
But that's what could've happen to Youko if she would immediatly ascend the throne without difficulty.
That's why i don't think that all the hardships Youko went through were accidential, just as she didn't loose the scabbard accidentialy. While it's a bit uncomfortable for me to use such high words - but don't you get a feeling that all of it was planned by heavens (or fate, whatever you call it)? To make sure that the new Kei-ou will be forced to discover the potential which she hided all her life deep inside? Ultimately, Kou-ou made her a great service, don't you think?
Niwashi2
What a great post, thanks for sharing.

Actually, I think Joukaku and Youko are similar in a lot of ways.

Yes, i guess, that what i was trying to say as well.

I don't think the difference is so much in Joukaku not having gone through as much as Youko, as the fact that she had power too quickly.

Um-m...I don't disagree, but i'm not sure what you mean. How could Joukaku have power..mm-m... slower? Do you think in terms she'd be older and more experienced in life? It might be true. But, as i said, i think, she already had all the potential, just as Youko did. The question is, should she be forced to undergo the same hell as Youko did to discover it? Or was there any other way for her to do it? But here we can only keep guessing. Because we also have no idea if Youko would be able to discover her potential in any other way...Would be both of them able to do that without sinking to the deepest darkness of their souls?
I'm just wondering...

The difference, the quality Youko had and she lacked, was in how broadly she could spread her concern. Even at the end, "those she cared about" was limited primarily to Keiki himself.

Yes, you might be absolutely right. But i'm not sure we have enough information to make a clear conclusion about that.
You see, when Joukaku comes back to her senses, the immediate problem facing her is the dying Keiki. But she also must know that if he dies, she'll die afterwards and the kingdom will lie in a waste till the next kirin is born and matures enough to find a ruler. By sacrificing her own life she'll keep the damage to the minimum. Keiki'll get well soon after her death and will be able to start the search for a new ruler immediatly.
True, maybe after all, she simply was deeply in love with Keiki and wanted desperatly to save first and foremost HIM...But how do we know for sure that's the only thought that was crossing her mind at that moment? Maybe she did consider her kingdom's fate as well among other things? Again, just musing about things...

Youko was able to care about the entire kingdom as a whole and seek the good of every individual in it.

Yes, that's true. Bu-u-u-ut....Let's not forget how she enters the ranks of rebels - she's trying to save Enho! Only discovering through her desperate searches the rebellion heating up she understands what a mighty opportunity she's got into her hands. And she uses it already to make up for her mistakes and for the benefit of the whole kingdom. She herself admits that she's started from quite a selfish for a ruler point, trying to save one person in front of her, to Shokei and Suzu in ep.38.
That's when Suzu finally understands how selfish and close-minded she was and how right Shokei and Sai-ou were. Thank you, zitch, for bringing up that very important conversation between Sai-ou and Suzu.
I still disagree, though, about Keiki's first impression about Youko.
That's the feeling i've got from just watching the anime, and this is, of course, just my opinion, - Keiki clearly doesn't care about Youko that much. He's happy that he finally found her, but he'd be equally happy if it'd be Asano or Yuka. He doesn't care at the moment, all he sees before his eyes is ouki and his poor desperate kingdom which simply needs SOMEONE to sit on the throne. That's what i felt from the ep.1.
But i have to admit, that after reading the novel, this feeling was supported even more by the original text. As i said, i didn't find any information anywhere about the additional abilities of kirin to judge the people, except for recognizing the ouki. So, what potential exactly could Keiki see in Youko in ep.1?
Just like nightchaser said -

When Keiki meets Youko for the first time he is not impressed by her at all, and basically tells her she can abdicate later and he would be all the happier for it.

This is from the book, but the anime sticks very close to the essense of the novels.
Thus, my interpretention of that conversation in ep.20 stays the same.

Returning a bit to the sword...

It's not accidental, but neither is it truth. It is what's in her mind, and that's important for understanding herself, but what's in her mind isn't necessarily what's going to really happen.

I don't think that i actually disagree here with you or carmolita.
Maybe i simply understand the definition of truth a bit differently.
Those reflections of her mind - they are true, because they really exist there, inside her head, her soul, however you put it.
Yes, i agree, that doesn't mean they'll happen in reality. But they MIGHT happen! That's why the Suiguu shows them to the owner - simply to warn him of what might happen if the ruler won't do something about it.
If Youko would continue to live in the palace without hearing the voices of her people, she had every chance to end her life as Joukaku did. It's not the fact, true, but a very true possibility. You can see already how she's almost driven mad by the officials, including Keiki, who simply can't help himself. How's about those breakdowns of her, when she scares Keiki to death in ep. 25-26, reminding him of Joukaku? Is that reflection that farfetched from reality?

In this particular instance it showed her the truth, but she still hasn't perfected her ability to distinguish the true visions from the false ones, which is why she didn't know it was true until she saw it for herself.

Again, i agree with almost everything you say about the sword, and, yes, i forgot to say that she wasn't sure it's the truth till she actually saw dead Asano smile and only then she understood, once again, that the sword never lies and never tries to please her. I just disagree about the "false" visions...I think, that the sword doesn't show false visions. Never. Not to any of his owners, however weak or strong they are.
It shows them things that might happen, the warnings of things to come, the reflection of their hidden fears and intuitions, which, by the way, are always based in reality (and we know this not just from this anime). There's nothing false about them, if you ask me. Because if the owner won't do anything about them - they'll become his true reality. This is the greatest truth you can ever find - inside your own mind.
Being able to distinguish between just facts of life and the things that MIGHT become ones is definitely something that Youko is still learning to do, that's true. But she seems to be the first Kei-ou to take the right path in right direction.

I think Jokaku had an obsessive / compulsive personality to begin with. Plus she was put in charge of a country that had been run by ministers for over 25 years (since the death of the last ruler) and she had no friends, not even Keiki. That would make anyone batty. Then she fell in love with Keiki and lost it totally. Imagine jealously combined with total power over those you are jealouse of. Also, no one would be alowed to contradict her as her word would be law. She abdicated to save Keiki with no regards to the state of the kingdom. She also had the option of backing off and becoming a "good" person, but instead she abdicated. This left the kingdom without a ruler, and was probably closer to a cure-all for Keiki.

I have been reading the story on http://www.eugenewoodbury.com/index.html and the translation hasn't gotten up to finding out about Ko yet. It does certainly seem that Keiki was followed into Horai by Korin at least. I imagine it would be easy for a kirin to follow another kirin. They can see each other's aura's (read the first few paragraphs of Chpt 13 "Sea of the Wind, Shord of the Maze" http://students.washington.edu/alo/nove ... k0213.html). I do wonder if Korin had even talked to Keiki about it. But still, how could Ko have found out about it in the first place. It appears, so far anyway, that Keiki had only spoken to Enki about going to Horai.

Perhaps Ko was so obsessed with Taika that he was having Korin follow Enki just out of spite and not Keki, and the info was obtained by accident? I think I'll go with that idea until more Shadow of the Moon gets translated.

nightchaser wrote:They certainly mature faster,

Do they? We only saw two kirin as children, and they both matured at the same rate as humans, but they were both taika and growing up in their human forms, so it's hard to tell how much that changed things. We know that normally kirin grow up in their kirin forms, but I don't remember any mention of how long that takes.

nightchaser wrote:we have Enki who nearly betrayed his King because he didn't trust rulers (20 years after he became king) and still doesn't really trust him (my opinion),

So - Enki was wrong as En has been stable for 500 years.

It's interesting, though, that even after 500 years, Shouryuu himself agrees to some extent with Enki's pessimistic assessment. Doesn't he say at one point that he could well destroy the kingdom, and may still do so someday if he doesn't have enough problems to keep him occupied. (Oh dear, now my memory is giving out again, as once again I remember a snippet of conversation and no context of where in the series it occured.) Of course, for the most part, he's much more optimistic and regards himself as a great king, which is certainly supported by his long reign and the prosperity of En (which had been desolate when he took over).

nightchaser wrote:Keiki did not form any friendship with Jokuta before or after she took the thrown leaving her lonely and alienated from everyone in the court. Lady Gyokujo even berated Keiki for that in Episode 15. I wonder if this left her so starved for attention that she went overboard when Keiki finally did become friendly with her. I don't think it was Keiki's fault that she did this, but it appears that his lack of initial friendship was the equivalent of telling her she was a looser as a queen and "why should I bother with you". Basically making his fears a reality by superimposing them onto her. He has an inability to form relationships himself and this, I believe, coupled with her obsessive personality was disastrous.

Keiki is certainly the most socially inept character of any anime I can think of. He has a very difficult time expressing himself. He has very little understanding of how other people feel, and even less of how his own actions can affect how other people feel. I agree that he inadvertently causes (or at least exacerbates) a lot of problems, making the transition for both of his queens harder than it needed to be.

nightchaser wrote:When Keiki meets Youko for the first time he is not impressed by her at all, and basically tells her she can abdicate later and he would be all the happier for it. The words of a very disgruntled Kirin. Yet Youko becomes, perhaps, as great as Tatsu-ou. He seems to expect perfection and is very bitter and dissapointed that he doesn't see it right away. I wonder what kind of person would have given him his expected first impression.

He certainly seemed bitter and dissapointed at Youko's inability to instantly realize her full potential the moment he choose her. It's as though he's thinking "the ouki's clearly there and is telling me she has this great potential as a queen, so why in the world is she acting like a frightened and confused kid?" He seems to still have no concept of the fact that people need a chance to adjust to something like this; that even for someone with a great potential, it can take a lot of work to realize that potential. The reason Youko is acting like a confused and frightened kid is of course because she is a confused and frightened kid. Keiki just doesn't seem to have much of a grasp of what she's going through or how his own actions are further aggravating her fear and confusion.

I still believe he sees her as having great potential as a queen, but without an understanding of what she's going through, this only serves to make him angry at her. He knows that she has all the qualities to be a great queen, so he's angry that she's not acting the way he expects a great queen to act. Most of the things pointed out as signs that he doesn't see her potential, I see as signs that he does see her potential and is frustrated that her actions don't seem to match the potential that he knows is there. The gap between her potential and her current state just doesn't make sense to him, and this is really just another aspect of his social ineptness and his lack of understanding of the human psyche. Trying to figure people out is very frustrating for him.

As to thinking kirin are highly perceptive, this is just my own idea I came up with and there's little in the anime to confirm it. I still like the idea, though. The perceptiveness, if it's there, obviously doesn't lead to any great understanding. (Keiki's incredibly dense when it comes to really understanding people.) For instance, I think this kirin perception is how Keiki immediately knows Youko has all the qualities to make a great queen, but then he has no understanding of what it takes to bring out those qualities and realize her potential. The perceptiveness is limited to seeing what qualites are in a person, but doesn't extend to knowing how those qualites will play out, what it takes to develop them, or how the person would react to a given situation. Those all would require social skills as well, which Keiki is severely lacking in.

Keiki's social ineptness is interesting. We only get to know three kirin and two of them are taika who grew up in their human forms in a much more social environment in Hourai. Keiki is the only "normal" kirin we get to know. He grew up in his kirin form in the very sheltered environment of Mt. Hou, which is supposedly the way most kirin grow up. I wonder how the other kirin with this typical upbringing learn to deal with people. Even though as a kirin, Keiki cares a great deal about people, he's never learned to deal with them or understand them. Is that just him, or do other kirin have similar difficulties? (It's hard to believe they would commonly have such difficulties to the extent that Keiki does, but perhaps to a lesser extent they all do, and Keiki is just an extreme example of it.) This is just speculation, though, because we never really get a chance to know any of the other kirin, at least not from the anime.

nightchaser wrote:Taiki - well I'm not sure he had any clue what he expected. But he seemed to think that Gyosou was going to make a mistake and followed him around everywhere until he was convinced that he had chosen a king. He seemed the most trusting, but I think he would have preferred to have Risai be the ruler.

I'm didn't get the impression that he thought Gyousou would make a mistake. He was desperately worried that Gyousou and the kingdom would both be punished for his own mistake, and he didn't quite know how or when that would occur. Gyousou misinterpreted this concern as concern that he (Gyousou) was doing something wrong, but that was because he didn't know about Taiki's misunderstanding of the ouki.

As to who he'd prefer as ruler, Taiki may have been more comfortable with Risai, but he wanted Gyousou so strongly that he pledged himself to him without even recognizing that it was a true ouki that made him so desperately want Gyousou for his king. Well, the way the ouki works sounds as though kirin always get the person they want, simply because it's in their very nature to want the right person.

beranda wrote:But that's what could've happen to Youko if she would immediatly ascend the throne without difficulty.
That's why i don't think that all the hardships Youko went through were accidential, just as she didn't loose the scabbard accidentialy. While it's a bit uncomfortable for me to use such high words - but don't you get a feeling that all of it was planned by heavens (or fate, whatever you call it)? To make sure that the new Kei-ou will be forced to discover the potential which she hided all her life deep inside? Ultimately, Kou-ou made her a great service, don't you think?

I agree, it could well have been the will of the heavens to make her go through an ordeal that would give her the maturity she would need to make a good queen. Or, if not directly planned, it was at least ironically fortunate in a lot of ways that wouldn't be apparent until after the ordeal was over.

beranda wrote:

I don't think the difference is so much in Joukaku not having gone through as much as Youko, as the fact that she had power too quickly.

Um-m...I don't disagree, but i'm not sure what you mean. How could Joukaku have power..mm-m... slower? Do you think in terms she'd be older and more experienced in life?

Just being older wouldn't have helped. It's more about the interval between the time when she was torn away from the world she knew and thrust into an unfamiliar situation and the time when she was given power. It's like you said about Youko needing to undergo the hardships she went through in order to mature. Jokaku also went through those hardships (or most of them anyway). Like Youko, she was taken from the world she knew and understood, seperated from everybody she had ever known, and thrust into an unfamiliar situation that she didn't know how to deal with. Although it's true that her life wasn't in such danger as Youko's, that was in some ways the least of Youko's problems compared to the upheaval of being taken from everyone and everything she knew. The difference isn't in one of them undergoing hardships and the other not, but that one of them already held a great deal of power while she was going through that difficult transition, and the other didn't get her power until after she had already dealt with it and gained the maturity that dealing with it gave her.

beranda wrote:Returning a bit to the sword...
It shows them things that might happen, the warnings of things to come, the reflection of their hidden fears and intuitions, which, by the way, are always based in reality (and we know this not just from this anime). There's nothing false about them, if you ask me. Because if the owner won't do anything about them - they'll become his true reality.

I agree with most of what you say, but I'm not so sure about this part. Just the fact that a ruler has fears and anxieties about something doesn't indicate that those fears will come true unless they act to prevent them. In many cases anxieties are just anxieties. When Youko started getting paranoid the sword told her that everyone was out to get her because that was what she feared. It wasn't true and never would be true, because the way that illusion portrayed people isn't the way they are - just they way she feared they might be. Acting on the idea that she's got to prevent those visions from coming true is exactly the wrong reaction to them. It's the aggressive aspect of the paranoid instict - "they'll get me if I don't stop them, so I've got to get them first." Youko's major breakthrough comes when she realizes that no, she can't accept those visions as warnings. She needs to acknowledge that her own insecurities do not in fact dictate other people's behavior.

Awesome discussion here, guys!

Niwashi2 wrote:

nightchaser wrote:we have Enki who nearly betrayed his King because he didn't trust rulers (20 years after he became king) and still doesn't really trust him (my opinion),

So - Enki was wrong as En has been stable for 500 years.

It's interesting, though, that even after 500 years, Shouryuu himself agrees to some extent with Enki's pessimistic assessment. Doesn't he say at one point that he could well destroy the kingdom, and may still do so someday if he doesn't have enough problems to keep him occupied. (Oh dear, now my memory is giving out again, as once again I remember a snippet of conversation and no context of where in the series it occured.) Of course, for the most part, he's much more optimistic and regards himself as a great king, which is certainly supported by his long reign and the prosperity of En (which had been desolate when he took over).

I remember seeing that, and I'm having trouble remembering where this occurs... Possibly near the beginning of the third Arc somewhere? He mentions that any kingdom has problems, but as Enki walks up from behind, he quickly adds that if there were no problems, he might get bored and be inclined to destroy En. It may or may not be true, but I really think he says this to tease Enki.

And Enki is probably the most aggressive kirin you'll see in the series. His relationship with the King is very unusual when compared to the others relationships with their ruler (of which we only really see Keiki, and to a lesser degree, Kourin and Kyouki). I don't know about ya'll but I laughed out loud when Enki made the king carry him in the fourth arc, and knocked him in the head for being too forceful in the second arc. I'm sure no other kirin would dare act that way to their ruler...

Fortunately for En, the king fully understands his role as the ruler. Not to be worshipped, but to serve all his citizens.

As to thinking kirin are highly perceptive, this is just my own idea I came up with and there's little in the anime to confirm it. I still like the idea, though. The perceptiveness, if it's there, obviously doesn't lead to any great understanding. (Keiki's incredibly dense when it comes to really understanding people.) For instance, I think this kirin perception is how Keiki immediately knows Youko has all the qualities to make a great queen, but then he has no understanding of what it takes to bring out those qualities and realize her potential. The perceptiveness is limited to seeing what qualites are in a person, but doesn't extend to knowing how those qualites will play out, what it takes to develop them, or how the person would react to a given situation. Those all would require social skills as well, which Keiki is severely lacking in.

To support just how perceptive at least Keiki is, remember when he carried the boy that was shot (and bleeding pretty profusely as a result) all the way to the capital because he would be faster than his servants? I'm not sure if his gentle nature would be strong enough alone to overcome his disposition against blood. It could be that Keiki realized just how important saving this boy was to Youko (though he may not understand why at the time).

Just conjecture, I'll try to comment on the other stuff later.

Great discussion (this is fun)

I have to wonder if a kirin who is placed with a ruler as a child is more social than a kirin who doesn't find a ruler until they are in their 20's. Enki, Taiki, and Sairin were all children and seem very caring. Keiki was in his mid or late 20's. I wish we had more kirin to compare.

I am saying that kirin mature faster based on a couple things. The first is the discussion that Rokuta's parents have in the book when discussing abondoning him. His mother thinks it will be bad luck because he is smarter than other 4 year olds, can talk like an older child and is very perceptive. Also, kirin are placed with a ruler very young (Sairin was 8, Taiki was 10) and expected to work. You couldn't do that with a human child of that age - the maturity would not allow for hours of concentrated work. Although, they don't seem to understand everything that is going on around them, they have a more advanced maturity level to help deal with it.

Concerning Youko and her trials and tribulations after entering Ko. I'm going to say that I think Tentei took advantage of King Ko's situation and added to Youko's problems. I think King Ko executed his evil plan, and Tentei decided that he could use it to test Youko and build up her character. I do not believe he "helped" King Ko with his evil deeds, just added situations to Youko's life. But he also may have "told" Rakushun to take a walk one day and thus he found Youko dying in the woods. I also believe that Tentei can see into the future and is setting up certain situations to ensure or prevent future events. The whole Gyosou arc seems to fit this. Jokuta would have been unable to get Taiki back to Kei, but Youka can. Risai wouldn't have known to go to Kei for help, except that Taiki was friends with Keiki and thought of him as his older brother. Youka couldn't have retrieved Taiki by herself, so King En was also there to help. A lot of "coincidences" - I believe it was fate.

Rakushun was a huge, huge factor in Youko's good character and her growth. Remember both Youko and Shoukei say that they are better people after meeting Rakushun, and that he saved them. I keep wondering if he will turn out to be the next King Ko - but that's a different discussion and completely conjectural. King En was the other big influence. He was like an older brother who wants to make sure his little sister succeeds so their parents (the heavens) will be happy There was no one to help Jokuta. Gosh, I'm starting to feel sorry for her (must remember all the women she had killed ).

Wow, my post from yesterday sure was long! Sorry, guys!
Bear with me, please!
Well, as i don't have any additional information about Joukaku - i can't add anything further to the discussion, i'm afraid. Those are my feelings, but i can be certainly wrong. The greatest thing about this anime is that it gives us a HUGE platform of material to discuss. And the Joukaku's personality is just one of them. Maybe it's a good thing we're not given many facts, but some clues here and there, so that everyone can interpret them the way thay like.

About kirins...

It's interesting, though, that even after 500 years, Shouryuu himself agrees to some extent with Enki's pessimistic assessment.

Yes, that's true. But! I think this is just shows us his humanity and vulnerability which are still there even after 500 years rule. I believe, personally, that they are part of the reason he's such a great ruler after all. Unlike Kou-ou or Hou-ou he never lets himself to forget he isn't perfect. He knows he's capable of mistakes and still continues to doubt himself. And his story about Atsyuu is one of the examples of that self-doubt. He conveys this thought to Youko very well and that's why you hear her declaring at the beginning of the ep.45 - "I'm the queen, chosen by heavens. But that doesn't mean i can't make a mistake!"
He never let's himself to forget his "other self" and that he can be foolish.
And Youko finally understands it herself as well.
"Always doubt yourself" - i think this is one of the crucial traits a great ruler must have.
So, sorry, but i think that Enki was quite wrong about him at first. And i think he knows it now. Of course, he's still critical about him, but for a reason. Shouryuu still has a lot of work to do about his kingdom, but he knows it and he does it. And they absolutely adore to tease each other, just as i said, they've been able to build a wonderful bond between them. I don't know how about you, but i felt that those two have a great relationship and sincere friendship.

but as Enki walks up from behind, he quickly adds that if there were no problems, he might get bored and be inclined to destroy En. It may or may not be true, but I really think he says this to tease Enki.

Yup! Absolutely agree!

Keiki is certainly the most socially inept character...I agree that he inadvertently causes (or at least exacerbates) a lot of problems, making the transition for both of his queens harder than it needed to be.

Again, absolutely agree. That's the reason he was scolded by lady Gyoukou. Just remember when he lectures Youko about how she shouldn't be friendly with the servants and makes her jump on the chair, while she's trying to write down everything he tells her? He simply can't help it, he has to be critical, even about the things that doesn't matter much. No wonder that Youko starts to jump at him as a wild cat from frustration - loved those scenes of her breakdowns, so emotionally true.

He certainly seemed bitter and dissapointed at Youko's inability to instantly realize her full potential the moment he choose her. It's as though he's thinking "the ouki's clearly there and is telling me she has this great potential as a queen, so why in the world is she acting like a frightened and confused kid?"

Ok...Let's agree to disagree. While i surely can't claim he doesn't feel her potential after she frees him in ep.13, but ep.1...
I think that he's bitter and disappointed because after such a long and desperate search for a ruler he finds this, exactly as you said, "frightened and confused kid" who posesses ouki and he knows, unlike her, that they both are in mortal danger, and she simply refuses to understand this! She doesn't want to go with him, doesn't want to defend herself, doesn't want anything to do with him. He doesn't notice that he simply doesn't act right. He doesn't seem to grasp the fact that she's absolutely unaware of the fact that she's taika from Kei, that he's a kirin and that she's a chosen ruler of Kei, she has no idea whatsoever what he's talking about and he's not in the mood to provide the answers.
I still don't get the fact why he pushes the Suiguu in her arms and demands her to use it, without even giving it a thought that she's not able to use the sword at all! Well, the explanation that "he knows that she has a great potential" doesn't work here - being the chosen ruler of the kingdom and having a great potential has nothing to do with the fact that 16-year old girl from Hourai has no chance to be a professional sword fighter, whatever her potential is. And no girl of her age even in the world of 12 kingdoms, however great their abilities are, have no such chance as well. She can only draw the sword out of the scabbard.
Keiki, again, makes the same mistake - he doesn't know how to communicate with his new queen, he's in the hurry and he's frustrated that he should provide her too much answers and ultimately finds the easiest way out - drags her into his world by force, without any further explanation.
If you ask me, if he'd at least tried to explain or just tell her a couple of things, maybe her situation afterwards wouldn't be that hard.
And, again, about the ouki...I didn't find so far, not in anime and not in the novels that there're various degrees of ouki. If i understand correctly, you either have it or you don't. There's no way for kirin to judge by ouki the potential of a ruler. But they can make their judgements on people exactly as other people do, using their brain and intuition.

Keiki just doesn't seem to have much of a grasp of what she's going through or how his own actions are further aggravating her fear and confusion.

Yes, absolutely agree. That's what i'm trying to say as well.

Most of the things pointed out as signs that he doesn't see her potential, I see as signs that he does see her potential and is frustrated that her actions don't seem to match the potential that he knows is there.

Well, again, i see your point. I'm not saying you're wrong, mind you. You take the same facts as i do, but interpret them differently, that's all.

For instance, I think this kirin perception is how Keiki immediately knows Youko has all the qualities to make a great queen, but then he has no understanding of what it takes to bring out those qualities and realize her potential.

It's all in the perception, then, i guess. Just as i said, i don't believe that any kirin has THAT kind of perception, never found it, not in anime and not in the novels (that i could read, that is). But that doesn't make it untrue either. So, let's just leave it there.

To support just how perceptive at least Keiki is, remember when he carried the boy that was shot (and bleeding pretty profusely as a result) all the way to the capital because he would be faster than his servants?

What's this has to do with some special kirins perception? Kirin is a creature "suffused with charity and compassion" even though it's "also very aloof and detached" (and Keiki is the epitome of this). Keiki sees that the boy is in mortal danger and his queen askes him to take Keikei to the palace and save him. He also sees that there's no time to loose, otherwise the boy will die. Those two reasons are more than enough for him to take the risk, as he's also able to do it in almost no time at all. Afterall we're not talking about some huge distanse - the child was shot within Keiki's own province, where the capital stands. Of course, it took some enormous effort from him, to be able to stand the blood on his back for some time, and he paid for it by his own health and had to spend afterwards days in bed, but he also knew he wouldn't die from it. Keiki acted exactly according to his nature and his position - being merciful kirin and devoted taiho. Again, just my humble opinion, not trying to argue with anyone...
About Youko and Joukaku:

The difference isn't in one of them undergoing hardships and the other not, but that one of them already held a great deal of power while she was going through that difficult transition, and the other didn't get her power until after she had already dealt with it and gained the maturity that dealing with it gave her.

Yes, great point! Maybe that's why "someone from above" was ensuring that Youko would complete her "survival training course in becoming your own master" before she ascends the throne, out of mercy for the poor Kei kingdom?

Acting on the idea that she's got to prevent those visions from coming true is exactly the wrong reaction to them.

He-e-ey! I didn't say that "doing something about it" is to run and prevent them! You're right, it'll be a great mistake to act in such a manner. But the person has to deal with those anxieties, not to hide them under the scabbard, that's all. Learning to deal with them is altogether another task and Youko's learning to do that as well, of course.

I also would like to understand a bit more about all this Kou-ou envolvment with the Kei kingdom. When exactly did he found out that the future ruler is taika? How he was able to follow Keiki all the way to Hourai and be able to arrange the ambush so fast and effectively for him and Youko?
Most of the things we just assume so far.
Can't wait to read this part of the novel as well. Fantastic job by Eugene Woodbury, by the way. Maybe someone who already read the originals in Japanese can help us so far? Please-pretty please?