The Twelve Kingdoms Forum

new here, so hajimemashite!

there was one thing which i have always thought weird about the system in 12k and that's the fact that they have brothels (er, well, at least in the anime, not sure about the novel).
so, if they have brothels, it means some sort of uh... sexual intercourse must take place. (?)

but then, people there are born on trees, which makes intercourse redundant, which means they would not develop in such a way such that they will copulate like we do in hourai.

women would not have wombs, so they wouldn't have the monthly icky thing all of us ladies would rather do without.

just kind of random. gues ono fuyumi sensei wouldn't need to go into all these technical details. lol.

We have had this discussion before. Several times if I recall correctly. I'll try to sumerise some of the issues raised and points made.

1) The world of the twelve kingdoms is blatantly artificial. Everything from the map to the goverment was done by divine intervention. Natural selection and evolution don't get a say.

2) Even without reproduction, sex serves the purpose of pair bonding and other social functions.

3) Fuyumi Ono paid strong attention to social structure and world building. Trying to work out what effect the lack of gender and romance would have on a world from first principles would both be extremely difficult and result in a world that was totally alien. A totally alien world would be harder to deal with and much less sympathetic.

thanks! i'll read around a little more before starting new threads!

Sorry if I came across a little abrupt - I'm not a nice person without my coffee and weatabix.

kurone.rin wrote:thanks! i'll read around a little more before starting new threads!

Cause we want less talking around here, you know!

Really, this is fine. If you want to continue discussing or expanding on what Jinx99 mentioned, go ahead! There's alot of old topics to go through, so running through them isn't entirely realistic if you have something you need to get off your chest!


My own thoughts: Yes, this world is "artificial" by its nature. And my own assumptions (through something in the anime itself or the novels) were that this world existed before it was remade. I'm guessing this world was much like our world before the remake; including a world that used sex for reproduction. It's also possible that our world was the source of this world. I'm guessing when Tentei made the Twelve Kingdoms, he really didn't change the basic human (or animal) biology much; just removed their reproductive abilities. Hence, sex still feels good but is biologically useless.

I'd hypothesize that overpopulation was a major problem that Tentei saw fit to fix? Using the riboku (the tree for humans and hanjiu) and yaboku (for plants, animals, and youma) as "gates", overpopulation of the lands by any single species just isn't possible.

I do wonder, they do have chicken (or some other bird) eggs, right? Hens can produce eggs without being fertilized (hence, those eggs will never produce an embryo), so maybe all Tentei did was sterilize all male animals? I forget if menstration was ever specifically discussed in the novels, though.

Jinx999 wrote:Sorry if I came across a little abrupt - I'm not a nice person without my coffee and weatabix.

Please consume lots of coffee and weatabix before coming to the 12k forums! *kowtow*

haha, thanks Zitch!

zitch wrote: I do wonder, they do have chicken (or some other bird) eggs, right? Hens can produce eggs without being fertilized (hence, those eggs will never produce an embryo), so maybe all Tentei did was sterilize all male animals?

so he sterilized all male animals, so nothing comes out of any female's empty wombs... hmmm.

oh, and do farmers tie ribbons on yaboku to get animals? would that make sense?

zitch wrote: I forget if menstration was ever specifically discussed in the novels, though.

I was wondering about Youko actually.
So she has her periods while she is in hourai, and when she's whisked off to the twelve kingdoms, her "shell" is cast off and she stops having that monthly thing?

what you said about hourai being similar to pre-12k, and the current 12k being modelled after that makes much sense.

The problem with applying scientific knowledge to the world of the Twelve Kingdoms is that it is a world that doesn't work by the laws of physics. It's a blatantly magical world. And if that play we see Youko performing is accurate, Tentei has changed the rules at least once.

It's flat.
Rain comes from an ocean in the sky.
Babies are born from magic trees.
The king is chosen by divine intervention.

One of the effects of this is that our assumptions about the workings of the universe aren't valid. We often can't think "what causes this" or "what purose does this serve", because instead of having a natural cause or an evolutionary purpose, things occur because Tentei did it. It's not just a world with different laws of physics, it's a world that operates by divine intervention. In the real world, the principle biological purpose of coitus is reproduction. In the twelve kingdoms there is no connection, probably. However, asking what purpose coitus serves is the wrong question. The question is why does Tentei want coitus to exist even without it serving a biological purpose? The only explanation I can come up with is that he doesn't want to alter human nature too much.

The other effect of this is that if the author wants a recognisible and understandable world, even with different laws of physics, she must keep human drives and personality recognisible. Eliminating coitus and romance would result in aliens, and not just guys with funny foreheads from Trek, but things who really are alien. It's easy to understand why Fuyumi Ono kept coitus, even though it's biological function has been taken by her trees.

Gosh, have you had your coffee yet?

Jinx999 wrote: Rain comes from an ocean in the sky.

Personally, i think Ono Fuyumi just got inspiration to have rain coming from an ocean in the sky on a literary whim. The Chinese characters for "an expanse of clouds" can be rendered as 云海 (yun2 hai3), literally, cloud sea. I think the Japanese language might have the same characters.
(That is, if you don't already know this. I'm beginning to have an uneasy feeling that everybody here knows everything.)

I realise that everything in the Twelve Kingdoms can be explained away by saying that it was all accomplished by Tentei, and hence, no explanations can be quite valid.
However, it is very tempting to compare our world with the Twelve Kingdoms because people have been transported to and fro these two realms.

Jinx999 wrote: However, asking what purpose coitus serves is the wrong question. The question is why does Tentei want coitus to exist even without it serving a biological purpose?

Isn't that the same question expressed differently? What Tentei wants can be defined as "purpose" here.

Yes, i do understand that the author wants to keep the Twelve Kingdoms understandable and recognisible; we would find it much harder to enjoy the series and relate to it otherwise.

Actually, the world that Tentei build is much more similar to the real world than dissimilar. You may not be able apply all of scientific knowledge, but it's still fun to apply the scientific process to this world (at least as much as we can). As such, we can only go by what we see, hear, or read about this world; anything else we would figure through inferences from that information. For details that we have no idea, it's actually pretty reasonable to apply what we know from the real world to it unless we discover contradictions when thing through to their logical conclusions.

I'd give Fuyumi Ono a bit more credit about how things occur more than "she just decided it" or "it's magic!". And it's still fun to retcon what we know even if it was the case the Mrs. Ono just decided to make things up or, more likely, took from Chinese and Japanese mythology. In fact, more information about those myths would probably be helpful

In any case, it's all in good fun.

P.S., eliminating coitus and romance? From what I hear from people here, that sounds like marriage! Then again, that does seem alien to my unmarried perspective...

kurone.rin wrote:Personally, i think Ono Fuyumi just got inspiration to have rain coming from an ocean in the sky on a literary whim. The Chinese characters for "an expanse of clouds" can be rendered as 云海 (yun2 hai3), literally, cloud sea. I think the Japanese language might have the same characters.
(That is, if you don't already know this. I'm beginning to have an uneasy feeling that everybody here knows everything.)

That I didn't know.

My point was that when you ask what purpose something something in the twelve kingdoms serves, you have to take Tentei into account. You can't talk about its biological or social function without considering why Tenei wanted it to work that way. Scientifically, trying to understand the world has more in common with reverse engineering a car than looking for the laws of physics.

Jinx999 wrote:
That I didn't know.

My point was that when you ask what purpose something something in the twelve kingdoms serves, you have to take Tentei into account. You can't talk about its biological or social function without considering why Tenei wanted it to work that way. Scientifically, trying to understand the world has more in common with reverse engineering a car than looking for the laws of physics.

Actually, the scientific process is all about reverse-engineering nature! We humans didn't know the rules (well, some of them; don't know if we will ever know *all* or even most of them) of the world without doing so. The laws of physics we know of were hypothesized then tested over and over again to the point where we basically take them as given. Whether the world was originally created by some god or not is immaterial to that process; science is all about discovery.

As such, all we are given are the facts that come out of the source material. My conjecture above is just that; we can hypothesize based of what we know and test against the rules we do know. I.E.:

- we know due to brothels and other things in the anime and books, coitus does exists in the Twelve Kingdoms and is apparently enjoyable. I'd also suggest that people (and animals) in the Twelve Kingdoms still have their reproductive organs intact; a native would still have a uterus if they were female, still have testicles if they were male, and still have all of the other organs related to such (ovaries, prostrate, penis, clitoris, etc.).

- If women do menstruate, that would suggest they might be fertile and could bear children (I.E., a kaikyaku can come over into this world and impregnate a "native" woman). As I've yet to read anything about childbirth in the 12 kingdoms other than that most people in the 12 kingdoms (I.E., Rakushun) think the concept is completely alien. This would suggest to me that such an event just doesn't happen in the Twelve Kingdoms. Hence, I do not think the women menstruate in this world and are simply not fertile.

- That said, female Taika in our world might actually do menstruate and can bear children, and male Taika are virile and produce sperm. Youko was 16 at the time of her crossing over; if she never experienced periods, I would think that would be unusual enough to warrant mentioning. Hence, I would think it is likely she did menstruate in our world. It is likely, reproductivity is suppressed while in the Twelve Kingdoms; on crossing over, any person is sterilized. I don't have enough details to know if this is permanent or temporary (hopefully temporary, or Yuka in the anime will never be able to bear children for her promise...). Ovaries just do not produce eggs and testicles do not produce sperm.

- One interesting situation is what if a pregnant woman actually successfully comes through to the Twelve Kingdoms? I would think that the baby would survive, but I have nothing but Occam's razor to go on. The woman would become infertile, but she is already carrying a fetus in a uterus that is, based on my earlier guess, still functional. Somewhat related to this is: does any existing sperm or egg survive intact, or are they destroyed on entry to the Twelve Kingdoms? If a man and a woman were to cross over and copulate soon enough, could the woman still get pregnant? Again, not enough information to really say for sure, but I would still think it's possible; surviving kaikyaku are rare. I would think for the average kaikyaku that come over, having sex the nearest opposite sex kaikyaku that also crossed over recently would be one of the last things in his/her mind. Maybe Youko and Yuka had one last period after crossing over?

I'll have to organize all of this into "facts from source material (anime, books)", "inferred from facts", and "conjecture/not enough info" at some later post.

Or, you know, maybe we should start on a Twelve Kingdoms wiki for all of this...

I also need to get back into watching the anime and reading the books again...

wow... I don't think I've ever seen an anime/game/manga forum like this; with the majority of its posts in correct and comprehendible grammar, plus long intelligent debates.

I think 12k is one of few rare anime that attracts intellectuals.

When looking for laws of physics, you don't have to stop and ask yourself "what was the designer trying to do here?" or "what purpose does this serve?" You do have to do this when looking at a car.

One point. Youko is a Taika - she's described as wearing a shell in Hourai which disappeared when she travels to the Twelve Kingdoms - and "reverts" to her "real" appearance.

Yuka is a Kaiyaku - she doesn't have a twelve kingdoms appearance to revert to. The situation isn't the same.

Youko's period is never mentioned in either the book or anime, that I can recall. I agree that it would be noticable if she'd never had one or it'd stopped, which would imply that she still had it in the twelve kingdoms, but we can't say for certain. However, menstruation is more connected with fertility than coitus is - and we know that people in the twelve kingdoms aren't fertile in the normal sense.

It's also apparantly easy enough, in En, for kaiyaku to get in contact with each other, which means that if two kaiyaku were fertile together, someone would probably have found out.

zitch wrote: ... even if it was the case the Mrs. Ono just decided to make things up or, more likely, took from Chinese and Japanese mythology. In fact, more information about those myths would probably be helpful

nope, i don't know any Chinese or Japanese myths Ono Sensei might have referenced from. well, except for the kirin, which might have taken its place beside dragons and phoenixes in Chinese history (qi2 lin2, same kanji characters). (i'm Chinese, but not very clued in on all the myths and legends...)

actually, i was wondering... what if female kirin rankas were to wash over to hourai, and no one from Junni Kokuki discovered her until say... when she's 20 years old. she would faint every time her period comes!

Actually, I'd think kirin would be a special situation: They are not human. I would doubt a female taika kirin would menstrate, even if she was in Hourai. That said, I'm sure she (and any male kirin) might be affected by women in Hourai going through their periods, given the kirins' sensitivity to blood.

I don't think they'd be that affected. Keiki was only knocked flat when sprayed with several gallons of blood and was only uncomfortable around Youko after she'd been through several major battles where she'd been fighting with a sword.

I lack personal experience, but I don't think periods involve that much loose blood.

Taiki was very weak even when he had just a trickle of blood flowing from his forehead...
i personally think that it would be quite an ordeal if a female kirin were to menstruate! even if there weren't that much blood, the smell is overpowering (um, yes, personal experience).

oh ya, do you think kirins wear silk garments? i wonder if silk is from silkworms over there. they wouldn't like that, would they? i mean the kirins..

I'll take your word for it.

IIRC, some people don't believe in harming any animals and and a) strict vegitarians and b) don't wear silk because making it involves killing a silkworm.

Kirin, however are physically allergic to meat and blood. It's not quite the same thing. Keiki had no problems with giving Youko a sword and telling her to kill a Youma, even though he is affected by Youma blood.

IIRC, Taika Kirin normally don't last long, now that I think about it. They have to be retrieved well before a female Kirin would normally start menstruating.

I don't remember anything about how long taika kirin can last. And Taiki got picked up at 10, pretty close to menstruation ages these days.

The books are almost squeamish in some ways; I'm not sure Youko not having a period anymore would be explicitly mentioned by the author. And given the radical changes in appearance and biology, we might be let to fill in the gap.

I too would guess that given En's kaikyaku community, and Rakushun's surprise at the concept of Earth-birth, that kaikyaku are sterilized or fertility-suppressed in being brought over or in living here.

Silk's an interesting question. Then again, they grow rocks here, and kings sometimes get newly designed plants from Heaven if they ask for such. There could be silk trees here.

mindstalk, i suppose you're right about the kaikyaku's fertility being suppressed.
and silk probably grows like cotton over there.

There's no evidence either way that the production of silk is different from that on Earth. Except that if silk was as easy to grow as cotton, it'd be a lot cheaper.

OTOH, cotton was an expensive luxury on Earth before the invention of the cotton gin, which made it's production a lot easier.

On the third hand, the production of silk is closely connected with the reproductive cycle of the silkworm - so what happens in a world that doesn't have reproductive cycles is anyone's guess. Chicken still lay eggs, though, and the larva may still undergo metamorphosis.

I'd just like to point out something interesting I hadn't really seen discussed in here. In the fourth book, when Yoko is studying under Enho, there is a part where she is talking to Rangyoku about Marriage. The book pretty much says that only marriage between a man and woman is possible. Also, it talks about that marriage is only a means by which to get children from a village tree, and to receive land in a different village. But, my point was that it also says that if they are just looking for companionship or partnership then marriage wasn't really necessary anyways.

There are tons of little subtle hints in the books that sex does happen. On top of that, the existence of brothels is a huge indicator of it as well.

The Twelve Kingdoms is also a physical world, and not a spiritual world. The books make that point many times. So, a physical urge like sex doesn't sound like it would be far fetched in a place like that. Even though in terms of reproducing it means nothing, sex is still a physical urge that people have.

It has been discussed quite throughly, if you have several hours to spend trudging through all the other threads. IIRC, the consensous is that sex still occurs in the Twelve Kingdoms, even though it no longer serves a reproductive purpose.

Well, sex is still present in Juuni Kokki, but not for reproductive purposes. After all, there are brothels( Taki tried to sell Youko in one, Kantai lived in one during Thousand Leagues of Wind, The Sky at Dawn and En Ou frequents them a lot).
And to answer a question posed in this topic, a kirin can survive in The Twelve Kingdoms about 30 years or so without a king. In Hourai, maybe 10 years before the impurites will kill them. ( this is one of the books, but I can't seem to remember which one)