The Twelve Kingdoms Forum

Hi, I couldn't find any topic about this, so I thought I would start one.

Dreaming of Paradise if one of the short stories in the collection with Pen Pals and Taiki's visit to Ren. This one is about a rebellion in Sai before the current Empress was crowned.

On a first read the poilitics were a little confusing and it was tricky to keep everyone straight, but I thought it was very good and had a lot of interesting ideas. Especially the idea of whether it is possible to build an ideal kingdom. First of all, because nobody's ideal is the same. And secondly because one person's ideal wouldn't necessarily leave room for people who don't fit into that ideal. Some of the questions rasied were good fruit for thought.

Another interesting part was when the king kicked out all the corrupt officials and then the government completely stopped, so he had to hire them all back and that made a huge fuss. They say art imitates real life, right? Because a very similar story happened in Mozambique, just after the war of independance. The government decided to kick out all the Portuguese people left, they had 24 hours to get out with 20 kg of stuff. However, these people were the business owners and managers. Without them, the government was alright, but business in the country was completely altered overnight and it was very difficult to recover. I thought it was an interesting parallel and show's that idealistic, radical change is perhaps not the best course in building a new dynasty. I wonder if Gyosyou could have benefitted from learning this lesson as well?

I would love to hear anyone else's thoughts on the story, as well. I think now I will have to go back and re-read it

Tapir12 wrote:Another interesting part was when the king kicked out all the corrupt officials and then the government completely stopped, so he had to hire them all back and that made a huge fuss. They say art imitates real life, right? Because a very similar story happened in Mozambique, just after the war of independance. The government decided to kick out all the Portuguese people left, they had 24 hours to get out with 20 kg of stuff. However, these people were the business owners and managers. Without them, the government was alright, but business in the country was completely altered overnight and it was very difficult to recover. I thought it was an interesting parallel and show's that idealistic, radical change is perhaps not the best course in building a new dynasty. I wonder if Gyosyou could have benefitted from learning this lesson as well?

I'm not sure that kicking out people because they're corrupt and becasue you don't like their race can be compared, even though the result in both cases is that you don't have enough people left to run the country effectively. And what's "idealistic" about what happened in Mozambique?

The problem with the Sai method is that the king didn't settle for half-measures or long term solutions. He either kicked out everyone or left everyone alone. He didn't have the patience to prune out the dead wood or set up a procedure to remove the corrupt over time. It either had to be perfect right now or he'd take his toys and go home.

I think winning a war of independance and kicking out the losing side is pretty idealistic, myself, since, just like Sai, they immediately tried to eliminate what remained from the previous administration that went against the values of the new administration (whether corruption or imperialism) without, as you said, building a long term strategy and transition structure. Anyways, I heard that story the other day and it made me think of Sai when I heard it.

Overall I really enjoyed this story. Being a short story, i was expecting something pretty light but was pleasantly suprised with the intricacy of the politics and the characters and some of the ideas it presented.

It's interested to wonder why Tentei choose that king at that time, when the next rular (the current empress) was also an option. For some reason, even though his reign only lasted 20 years, Sai needed him, or at least Tentei thought it did. I wonder if he was chosen to be a martyr for Sai or if it was a mistake on Tentei's part.

Tapir12 wrote:I think winning a war of independance and kicking out the losing side is pretty idealistic, myself,

Do you honestly not see the diference between "kicking out the losing side" (itself a bad idea, because everyone's going to be a losing side some time, and you don't want to set a precedent, but not intrinsically immoral) and expelling everyone who happened to be of the same race as the losing side and stealing their stuff?

Just becasue something is an understandable response to colonisation, that does not mean it's right or sensible. Africa needed a lot more Mandela's than it got.

My guess is that he had the potential to be a good king - except that he lost himself in deams and refused to compromise with reality - he wasn't prepared for how much hard work and nitty-gritty goes into running a country. He wasn't willing to get his hands dirty.

Youko is shaping up to be an excellent ruler, but only because she had to grow up hard and fast after entering the Twelve Kingdoms (imagine Class Representive Nakajima trying to run a country) and she still spent the first third of "A thousand leagues of wind" screwing up by the numbers.

"I thought it was an interesting parallel and show's that idealistic, radical change is perhaps not the best course in building a new dynasty. I wonder if Gyosyou could have benefitted from learning this lesson as well?"
I would have to say that Gyousou situation with regards to his court was different than the prvious king of Sai's position was. Sai-ou just fired ministers of the previous reign wholesale on the basis that whatever the old king used must have been bad rather than trying to judge a ministers worth based on their merits. What Gyousou did was entirely different (and correct). He already had officials he knew the capabilities of in place to prop up the kingdom during an interregnum, and when it came time for him to take his place on the throne, while he clearly did fire many servants and officials in the interests of trimming the fat on the royal court, he went through them each and picked out which to keep and which to discard. Furthermore, he listened to the advise of his kirin, and asked opinions on the matter.
But I agree that the idea of "paradise" spoken of in the tale of Sai was an interesting one. The younger brother's (I forget his name) thoughts on how his older brother wanted to build a kingdom of people so virtuous that everyone would be able to live in perfect harmony not allowing space for an ordinary sort of fellow like him to be comfortable in were very interesting. It just shows how far ideals often fall short of reality, a ruler must deal with things as they are as well as build the sort of world they hope to see.
I felt a little bit sad that the (was she his aunt or his mother?) Kousho at the end wasn't a very large part of the story up until the end when she jst stepped onto the stage and delivered the moral of the story, I feel she should have had a greater part in the whole tale.

I didn't know where else to put this but in the same anthology that Dreaming of Paradise is featured in is another story (that's only half-translated into english) where the king of En Shouryuu and a prince of the other long-ruling royal family in... Sou(?) run into each other in Ryuu when they're there to take t read on the situation. I was thinking or writing a one-shot about the prince who lives in Ryuu trying to keep the throne together for his fathers sake. WOuld that get any reads or would it be too obscure?

I would read it, because I love anything involving En. I was always interested in Ryuu's problems as well.