God!!!! JK39 was soooo goood!!!! *no spoiler*

ogopogo · Post by **ogopogo** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 2:30 am

Oh god eps 39 was so good....I watched it 3 times over, think i will rewatch the whole thing again sometime soon. Anyway I just wanna say bravo to #12ktp crew for doing such an amazing job on every single JK episode! Thank you soo much for translating this serie...Hope we'll get to see the new season soon

*runs off to watch JK39 again*

Warf@re · Post by **Warf@re** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 5:14 am

My compliments too !
Really nice work ^^ Hope to see much more episodes soon

SNeptun · Post by **SNeptun** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 8:56 am

only spoiler is that the opening was missing

pyu · Post by **pyu** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 9:20 am

I think the leaving out of the usual opening was intended. After all, it was the last ep of season one and they had to stick plenty of remaining details into it.

Reckless Angel · Post by **Reckless Angel** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 1:20 pm

yah... this episode felt a loooot longer than the others..

cause it missed the opening and the ending theme (well, kinda).

I'm very pleased with this episode. =^_^=
a perfect chapter ending, really.

not as easy to pull off, as it seems

cheers,

- reckless angel.

Omega037 · Post by **Omega037** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 3:49 pm

It would be a good place to end the story, but it also leaves plenty of room for continuation. This episode really had a lot of great drama as well as the usual action. I suggest watching it a few times, I keep seeing more depth and meaning for each of the characters everytime I do.

TenAJs · Post by **TenAJs** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 6:32 pm

I have an uneasy feeling about Yoko's first imperial speech. It's good that she's abolishing those practices and telling her people to hold their heads high but there's a downside to that, I think. Basically, she's going against the traditions of the JK world and it will bring trouble down the road...

I'm guessing that the trouble would be someone who would think it right for them do such-and-such (i.e. like our free speech and democracy stuff). So if they're allowed to do what they want, more and more traditional rules will be thrown away to make way for "what feels right for the person/people." (Think lassé faire and today's capitalism.)

And eventually things will escalate to something that parallels how sex and violence escalated from the early 20th century to now. And then something mighty big will happen to unstabilize Kei and then the JK world... like how violence is with today's youth (tsk tsk)

Eugh, I sound like a 60 year old -_-
Hope I'm making sense though :/ Just my thoughts.

Pikachu · Post by **Pikachu** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 8:17 pm

I loved it. It was worth all the wait and I was practically shivering in excitement while watching it. Yoko really had this commanding aura around her, and I liked how she handled the situation with the Imperial guards.

I love Jinrai's reactions to every word she said.

^.^

All in all, I thought it was an amazing piece of work.

I can't stop watching it! And yeh thanks to #12ktp group. *thumps up*

garamir · Post by **garamir** » Thu Jul 17, 2003 3:38 am

TenAJs wrote:I'm guessing that the trouble would be someone who would think it right for them do such-and-such (i.e. like our free speech and democracy stuff). So if they're allowed to do what they want, more and more traditional rules will be thrown away to make way for "what feels right for the person/people." (Think lassé faire and today's capitalism.)

I wonder how likely that would be. Certainly not among the peasants, but it could become a problem among the nobility. For now, they'll be far too embarrassed to exploit that rule.

Hopefully, Youko will remember to retain some sense fo dignity in her position. Empresses can't be everyone's buddies.

I wonder if Kei will become the new En for aikyaku and hanjyuu. With at least two countries in such strong support for equality, I wonder if those policies will spread or cause conflict with the other nations.

shouki · Post by **shouki** » Thu Jul 17, 2003 7:38 am

Youko's speach was about earning respect (instead of demanding it) and specifically, that the current style of grovelling on the ground will be forbidden except in special cases (cerimonial, diplomatic...). Basically, she thinks the current situation is too stiff and formal and too humiliating - it's not like she wants the people to be informal or casual. She also doesn't like the fact that when people are grovelling on the ground she can't see their faces - in one of the earlier episodes in the story arc, she thought something similar (wondering what expression the ministers had).

So, I don't see a problem. btw, Youko is the supreme ruler - she can re-write the constituition if she wants (assuming Kei has one).

oion · Post by **oion** » Thu Jul 17, 2003 9:10 am

shouki wrote:Youko's speach was about earning respect (instead of demanding it) and specifically, that the current style of grovelling on the ground will be forbidden except in special cases (cerimonial, diplomatic...). Basically, she thinks the current situation is too stiff and formal and too humiliating - it's not like she wants the people to be informal or casual. She also doesn't like the fact that when people are grovelling on the ground she can't see their faces - in one of the earlier episodes in the story arc, she thought something similar (wondering what expression the ministers had).

So, I don't see a problem. btw, Youko is the supreme ruler - she can re-write the constituition if she wants (assuming Kei has one).

I definitely agree; I doubt it would come to the excess "freedoms" TenAJs suggests - Youko's address was about basic human dignity, and there are important differences between the 12k world and this world.

Why did Tentei rent the 12k world asunder, remake it, and subjugate the kingdoms in the first place? Wasn't it because the citizens lost respect and stopped following the laws, and failed to appreciate the power of the emperors? I don't remember the ep where they went into this, but it was something like that, right. If Kei's morality declined and spread, one would think Tentei would take action, anyway. It's quite possible if things don't go as intended, Youko would be removed from the throne too. I hope that doesn't happen, of course.

Reckless Angel · Post by **Reckless Angel** » Thu Jul 17, 2003 11:17 am

also... earlier someone asked her what kind of person Koukan was (I think Keiki asked) ... she remarked that she didn't know, cause when tehy met while she was battling the false emperor, he was kneeling the whole time so she couldn't see his face, (and thus.. she couldn't get a feel for what kind of person he was)..

just a penny for my thoughts

- reckless.

Omega037 · Post by **Omega037** » Thu Jul 17, 2003 2:25 pm

Yeah, I got the idea that she felt that bowing was almost like lying to her. By demanding them to bow, it was no longer a sign of respect since it was required. Respect should be earned, not forced, and she only wanted someone to bow if they wanted to(thereby demonstrating that they actually respect her). Also, bowing would hide the person's face, thereby making it seem like people were hiding themselves.

As for breaking tradition, she said bowing was okay for diplomacy and special occasions, so tradition wouldn't be totally broken in that sense.

garamir · Post by **garamir** » Thu Jul 17, 2003 4:13 pm

shouki wrote:Youko's speach was about earning respect (instead of demanding it) and specifically, that the current style of grovelling on the ground will be forbidden except in special cases (cerimonial, diplomatic...). Basically, she thinks the current situation is too stiff and formal and too humiliating - it's not like she wants the people to be informal or casual.

I understand what Youko wants. The question is, will anyone try to take advantage of it? Youko is naturally easygoing and doesn't always present herself as an empress when she'swith people she considers friends. Any normal citizen wouldn't dare abuse that privilege, but a corrupt minister might overstep his or her bounds if he/she seens Youko as weak.

It's not something that will definitely happen in the near future -- it's just something that Youko may have to deal with later if people get used to the liberties she allows.

It reminds me of the chapters on En that are translated on that novel site... which we might be seeing in a few episodes. Youko's more responsible than En-ou, though.

Yeah, I got the idea that she felt that bowing was almost like lying to her.

Not only were they being falsely modest, she also seemed to dislike not being able to see their faces as they spoke, since she had no idea what the person was like or what their expression was.

TenAJs · Post by **TenAJs** » Thu Jul 17, 2003 10:29 pm

ahh I see the point Yoko was trying to get across now...
phew* glad I shared my thoughts with you guys

drifterx · Post by **drifterx** » Sat Jul 19, 2003 9:21 am

garamir wrote:I understand what Youko wants. The question is, will anyone try to take advantage of it? Youko is naturally easygoing and doesn't always present herself as an empress when she'swith people she considers friends. Any normal citizen wouldn't dare abuse that privilege, but a corrupt minister might overstep his or her bounds if he/she seens Youko as weak.

It's not something that will definitely happen in the near future -- it's just something that Youko may have to deal with later if people get used to the liberties she allows.

It reminds me of the chapters on En that are translated on that novel site... which we might be seeing in a few episodes. Youko's more responsible than En-ou, though.

That may be true but after the events that led to the purging of corrupt officials, I don't think anyone would underestimate Youko any more. It is a double-edge sword but with Youko's capable hands, I think Kei Kingdom can prosper with it.

My question is how far will Youko go with these changes? In the grander scheme of things, how long before she starts opposing the laws of Tentei to bring about a change that agrees with her morality? Troubling questions but hopefully, they won't be answered until much later down the line, if at all. I want to see more of Juuni Kokki before even hinting at a possible endgame. I want to see more dammit!

rakucho · Post by **rakucho** » Sat Jul 19, 2003 12:53 pm

on a side note for the few comments i've seen. The missing Op for ep 39 was cuz we cut it out so as to skip straight to the good stuffs.

just kidding just kidding. The missing Op was already there. (Nothing was cut out by the subbers). I believe it was intended that way by the animator (plus, you gotta admit THAT was a hell of an opener for the final ep. Gotta love the cloud scenes with Keiki and all.)

garamir · Post by **garamir** » Sat Jul 19, 2003 6:28 pm

I wonder, what changes would she bring about that would disagree with the Tentei plan? Greater international interaction? The world seems to have been designed to prevent that (I guess the author's not a fan of globalization), but I don't see it being forbidden unless it becomes a tool of oppression for certain countries to use against others. But then, each country is self-sufficient if governed properly. So strike that idea.

The emperor seems to have quite a bit of leeway as long as the people are cared for, so I don't think her more liberal bowing policies will cause that much trouble.

Perhaps putting down a coup too forcefully, or trying to meddle too much in other countries whose policies she doesn't agree with? It's possible she could do more harm than good if she hears of places like Tai that are wasting away for lack of a Meikun. But that's a long-shot, and Tai will be taken care of shortly. The Kei province leader apparently has a good grasp of how Hou should be run, so are there any other abandoned countries at the moment?

I guess I vote for international war for the most likely outcome affecting Kei. Other than that, I can only see her aiding the search for Taiki indirectly.

jmc · Post by **jmc** » Sat Jul 26, 2003 12:56 am

I wonder, what changes would she bring about that would disagree with the Tentei plan?

From what I recall, Youko grumbles to Keiki after she becomes immortal that the rules handed down from Tentei are all commonsensical things, like "Do not raise taxes" and "Do not enjoy war". The standards that she seems to be held accountable to are more or less in line with basic human decency, and whatever her flawd may be Youko is not an evil woman. Anything that could be said to challenge the divine plan would be beyond her power anyway - she is only immortal because Tentei allows it. If she transgresses and doesn't mend her ways fast enough, Keiki gets sick and she dies.

The emperor seems to have quite a bit of leeway as long as the people are cared for, so I don't think her more liberal bowing policies will cause that much trouble.

I'd like to see her make religious policy. We know that there is a state faith - she has a minister for religious affairs in the council - and it certainly would revolve around Tentei, given how the beliefs about the origins of the world with his decision to destroy and remake things are universal. We also know that there are some Buddhist temples established by kaikyaku (unless I am hallucinating a memory of Rakushun speaking to Shoukei). If everything in the Twelve Kingdoms takes the reality of Tentei and his laws as it's basis - and everything does, it's even where children come from - then I can't see any serious religious change being anything other than an outright undermining of whatever empire it happens to occur in. To deny Tentei is to deny the monarch and the kirin and the laws and the customs of everyone else. This could give Youko some problems. Especially if it is started by an apocalyptic cult.

guess I vote for international war for the most likely outcome affecting Kei. Other than that, I can only see her aiding the search for Taiki indirectly.

I thought international war was impossible. Doesn't someone - the emperor of En? or is it Rakushun? - say at one point that no emperor may cross the border of another realm with weapons?

Interesting idea - a kirin proclaims one person emperor of all the kingdoms. Then we have a messiah. And wouldn't it be more fun if the kirin was telling the truth? How many of the rulers would step aside or be content to become someone else's ministers? How many of the kirin could sit by while the wars of unification were waged up and down the kingdoms?

Since I am making my season two wish list, I should add that I want to see Youko go back to Japan to visit and talk with Sugimoto. It might be nice to see her try and relate to an old friend ("Sorry to tell you, but Asano snapped and shot some kid after living with travelling performers for some months. Then he had a change of heart and tried to help us waste a corrupt magistrate, but he got killed on an errand that turned out to be totally unnecessary.") Meeting her parents would be fun too.

beancurd · Post by **beancurd** » Sat Jul 26, 2003 9:37 am

jmc wrote:
The emperor seems to have quite a bit of leeway as long as the people are cared for, so I don't think her more liberal bowing policies will cause that much trouble.
I'd like to see her make religious policy. We know that there is a state faith - she has a minister for religious affairs in the council - and it certainly would revolve around Tentei, given how the beliefs about the origins of the world with his decision to destroy and remake things are universal. We also know that there are some Buddhist temples established by kaikyaku (unless I am hallucinating a memory of Rakushun speaking to Shoukei). If everything in the Twelve Kingdoms takes the reality of Tentei and his laws as it's basis - and everything does, it's even where children come from - then I can't see any serious religious change being anything other than an outright undermining of whatever empire it happens to occur in. To deny Tentei is to deny the monarch and the kirin and the laws and the customs of everyone else. This could give Youko some problems. Especially if it is started by an apocalyptic cult.

You have to remeber that to the average civilian don't actually believe in Tentei just like us, for them it's not something that is completely definate.

Remeber Rakushun saying how he did not believe in praying to God for good luck etc and can only depend on hardwork for his achievements back around the time where he was taking youko to the seaport.
And also the time when the fat bloke tried kidnapping Taiki and Shinkun appeared, they couldn't believe he was actually a God at first. Also when youko was talking to rakushun about her maids name and how it seemed to be popular, and him saying that even though they are named after a Goddess it's probaly just a myth that see exists.... even tho she is in so many of the episodes that we've seen.

Praying to Tentei for babies might just be something of the norm for them, so they properly don't think to much about it

beancurd · Post by **beancurd** » Sat Jul 26, 2003 9:38 am

opps got a bit carried away with the submit button there

Zonis · Post by **Zonis** » Sat Jul 26, 2003 11:20 am

jmc wrote: Since I am making my season two wish list, I should add that I want to see Youko go back to Japan to visit and talk with Sugimoto. It might be nice to see her try and relate to an old friend ("Sorry to tell you, but Asano snapped and shot some kid after living with travelling performers for some months. Then he had a change of heart and tried to help us waste a corrupt magistrate, but he got killed on an errand that turned out to be totally unnecessary.") Meeting her parents would be fun too.

I would actualy like to see that too

, I want to see her attempt to explain this to her parents, not to mention finaly telling Asano's family what happened to him. Then, while she's there, Sugimoto can tell her about Taiki.

If we remember what she was told before when she took the throne, what the emporer must do, protect the citizens, don't seek war, etc, if you compare this to the European Middle Ages, or Japan's "Middle Ages" (I think it was the Shogon sytem right?), these thoughts would actualy be considered very liberal. Of course, to today's standards it would not seem very liberal, but we have recived a lot more freedoms and such since then. That could be traced back to the 'Age of Enlightenment' (is that the right age???) with all the pholosiphers in France, England, etc... School of Morality anyone???

jmc · Post by **jmc** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 5:10 pm

I would actualy like to see that too , I want to see her attempt to explain this to her parents, not to mention finaly telling Asano's family what happened to him. Then, while she's there, Sugimoto can tell her about Taiki.

I can't recall if she knows exactly who Taiki is. I don't think she picked up much Kirin lore while she was playing Ms. Superhero for the Emperor of Kou, so she might not recognize any signs Taiki might give off (whatever those might be). And he clearly doesn't remember anything.

I want to know what happened to drive him away. Maybe that youma of his got out of control and killed the emperor?

If we remember what she was told before when she took the throne, what the emporer must do, protect the citizens, don't seek war, etc, if you compare this to the European Middle Ages, or Japan's "Middle Ages" (I think it was the Shogon sytem right?), these thoughts would actualy be considered very liberal.

Not really. The notion that the people in charge are supposed to be benevolent and good to their subjects is found all over the place. Look at the legends about King Arthur and Charlemagne.

Of course, to today's standards it would not seem very liberal, but we have recived a lot more freedoms and such since then. That could be traced back to the 'Age of Enlightenment' (is that the right age???) with all the pholosiphers in France, England, etc... School of Morality anyone???

Nah. Enho and his gang resemble Confucius too much to be like the Enlightenement thinkers.

All of this is inspiring me to get my copy of "Three Kingdoms" off the shelf and search for fanfic ideas.

jmc · Post by **jmc** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 5:18 pm

You have to remeber that to the average civilian don't actually believe in Tentei just like us, for them it's not something that is completely definate.

Where did you see that? I know Rakushun makes light of the idea of praying to pass an exam, but that isn't the same thing as not believing in Tentei, it's just the abscence of superstition. Remember when Youko was with the travelling performers? She saw a play about the creation of the kingdoms and everyone around her took it for absolute fact.

And also the time when the fat bloke tried kidnapping Taiki and Shinkun appeared, they couldn't believe he was actually a God at first.

That just means that they don't believe in the other lesser gods. If he was after the kirin, he had to believe in Tentei.

Also when youko was talking to rakushun about her maids name and how it seemed to be popular, and him saying that even though they are named after a Goddess it's probaly just a myth that see exists.... even tho she is in so many of the episodes that we've seen.

The goddess is in many episodes, or the maid is? I'm lost.

Praying to Tentei for babies might just be something of the norm for them, so they properly don't think to much about it

Yeah, but the babies do come. And they don't come if you don't pray for them. And, IIRC, someone who becomes emperor can't pray for a baby after they take the throne. All of those are things that couldn't be done without Tentei's power.

garamir · Post by **garamir** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 6:32 pm

jmc wrote:I can't recall if she knows exactly who Taiki is. I don't think she picked up much Kirin lore while she was playing Ms. Superhero for the Emperor of Kou, so she might not recognize any signs Taiki might give off (whatever those might be). And he clearly doesn't remember anything.

I don't think she knows. If she thought about it enough, she could figure it out by the nyoukai and shirei and the mysterious accidents, but she doesn't appear to have put two and two together. Then again, if she was trying to hit on someone from the other side, I wonder if she'd encourage him to go home, even if he did turn out to be a kirin.

I want to know what happened to drive him away. Maybe that youma of his got out of control and killed the emperor?

Someone mentioned that the gsah on his forehead might have been an injury to his horn. If he let that happen, the emperor might be dead as well (although nobody's found proof of that), and now Taiki blames himself for picking the wrong emperor or bringing pain on him. Otherwise... what could cause him to go home? Could someone have cut off his horn?

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God!!!! JK39 was soooo goood!!!! no spoiler

God!!!! JK39 was soooo goood!!!! no spoiler