Hourin's role *spoilers*

Seravy · Post by **Seravy** » Sat Aug 30, 2003 4:56 pm

I'm not sure if someone had already mentioned this but in ep 23, we briefly see Hourin and I felt really bad for her. Firstly Gekkei mentioned that her wrong choice brought about the fall of the kingdom but we also know that kirins are just vessels of tentei's decision so she really couldn't be blamed for it. Keiki also talked about the kirin not being able to resist the revelation.

On a very bias POV, kindda made me feel that Gekkei was probably secretly mad at Hourin for choosing that Retsu-oh instead of him.

Keiki had another chance despite Jokaku's inability to rule and Sairin had three emperors and people still liked her. and like in Kourin's case, there wasn't really much Hourin could do especially when the queen looks like she has a lot of influence on the king as well. Sorry for the rambling but I wasn't too happy about what happened to her. (not to mention she was already plagued by shitsudou when Gekkei killed her)

Lauren · Post by **Lauren** » Sat Aug 30, 2003 5:42 pm

It does seem weird that Gekkei killed her, now that you mention it. Gekkei's smart enough to know that it's not really Hourin's fault that she choose a crap emperor. Taiho are, after all, just the vessels of Tentei's will.

However, I don't think that Gekkei had a grudge against Hourin because he was secretly mad that Hourin chose Retsu-ou instead of Gekkei.

I'm sure he felt that Hou deserved a better emperor than the one Hourin chose, and resented her for it in some respect. But in later episodes, we learn that Gekkei doesn't assume the throne right away, doesn't really want to, and the coup d'etat really *was* carried out for the people, not so that Gekkei could become emperor or some other ulterior motive. So I'm not so sure that he felt Hourin should have chosen him instead of Retsu-ou.

Seravy · Post by **Seravy** » Sat Aug 30, 2003 5:57 pm

Lauren wrote: I'm sure he felt that Hou deserved a better emperor than the one Hourin chose, and resented her for it in some respect. But in later episodes, we learn that Gekkei doesn't assume the throne right away, doesn't really want to, and the coup d'etat really *was* carried out for the people, not so that Gekkei could become emperor or some other ulterior motive. So I'm not so sure that he felt Hourin should have chosen him instead of Retsu-ou.

yea, I agree with you as Gekkei does seem like a very fair and righteous man but I was just being a biased bitch since he killed Hourin. And now, because he did, Hou will have to wait for the next ranka and didn't someone mention that there can only be one kirin being cared for in Mt. Hou at a time? we already saw that Kou's next ranka is already there so by killing Hourin, Gekkei did not do his kingdom a favour.

oion · Post by **oion** » Sat Aug 30, 2003 7:58 pm

I found that particular point (Gekkei killing Hourin) troubling as well. He's this great provincial lord blah blah, and he just goes and does that to the poor kirin who was already suffering from shitsudou? The only way I could reconcile this was that Gekkei was putting Hourin out of her misery out of, uh, mercy. Or something.

Seravy · Post by **Seravy** » Sat Aug 30, 2003 11:03 pm

oion wrote: The only way I could reconcile this was that Gekkei was putting Hourin out of her misery out of, uh, mercy. Or something.

As much as I would like to think in the same manner, the way he was BLAMING Hourin and telling her that she must now feel the pain of the people before he killed her was disturbing. It's hardly mercy. Now she can't even rest in peace.

Lauren · Post by **Lauren** » Sun Aug 31, 2003 12:24 am

Gekki would have been putting Hourin out of her misery if it were true that shitudou were not curable. However, if he killed the emperor and left Hourin alive, she would have recovered, and I don't see how he wouldn't know that.

Do you think maybe Gekki has no belief or respect for the emperor-choosing system and believes it to be flawed, as we've seen with so many other people? Perhaps he wasn't just trying to overthrow the bad emperor, but do away with the system as well?

On a side note: I haven't read the novels, because I know no Japanese, but I really want to know why there's only one ranka on the sashinboku right now. What, is the sashinboku only capable of growing one at a time or something?

oion · Post by **oion** » Sun Aug 31, 2003 5:03 pm

Yes, it was a very big stretch; I didn't remember what Gekkei said exactly in that episode. ^^; But I don't think Gekkei is fighting against the system per se, because he never took the throne - after all, in ep (whatever), he said the purpose of the court was to maintain the land and status quo and just relinquish it to the proper emperor. That's it. So he's supporting the system that way. Poor Hourin regardless...

As for the one ranka - I thought about that too (that the tree could only produce one fruit at a time). Interestingly, I've always assumed that there could only be one master of Mt.Shou (?) at a time as the kirin are raised, but maybe not. It'd be interesting to see two kirin raised at the same time.

Neko-chan · Post by **Neko-chan** » Sun Aug 31, 2003 6:06 pm

oion wrote: As for the one ranka - I thought about that too (that the tree could only produce one fruit at a time). Interestingly, I've always assumed that there could only be one master of Mt.Shou (?) at a time as the kirin are raised, but maybe not. It'd be interesting to see two kirin raised at the same time.

its true the tree might produce only one Ranka at the time,but i remember that Keiki still lived on Mt Hou when Taiki's Ranka was growing there,and lived there for 6 more years(i think)til he found his first empress.
That would mean ,if Taiki's Ranka would've not been blown away by the Shoku,that there would have been two houzankou's.
So hopefully after Kou's Kirin is born Hou's Ranka will grow right after(hmm

)

drifterx · Post by **drifterx** » Sun Aug 31, 2003 8:54 pm

In many ways, Hourin was to blame and as Gekkei sought to punish the Emperor for the injustices done to the people so must he exact the same amount of punishment to the kirin. The kirin was supposed to be a merciful being and apparently that was a trait that Hourin failed to impart on the Emperor; failure that cost the lives out thousands of citizens. Thankfully, Gekkei's sense of justice prevailed before even more people died while Tentei was taking too much time waiting for shitsudou to take out the Emperor.

Gekkei did the right thing by any of our countries' standards. It may not agree with Tentei's way of doing things, which is why Hou is such an interesting case.

Lauren · Post by **Lauren** » Mon Sep 01, 2003 12:39 am

drifterx wrote:The kirin was supposed to be a merciful being and apparently that was a trait that Hourin failed to impart on the Emperor

Personally, I don't agree with this point. The way it's set up, unfortunately, is that a kirin serves the emperor and the emperor has absolute power. His word is law and a taiho must obey it regardless of how terrible the orders are. A taiho can try to exercise influence over the emperor and beg him to stop doing the bad things he does (i.e.: Kourin), but ultimately, it's up to the emperor to follow that advice or not.

I don't think Hourin had any better chance at changing Retsu-ou than Kourin did of changing Shuuja.

Though it's not entirely clear, it seems that going against the wishes of the emperor may mean death for the taiho, either at the hands of the emperor or by Tentei. Or perhaps it is impossible for a taiho to disobey his emperor, just as it's not possible for a taiho to bow and submit to anyone but his rightful ruler.

Seravy · Post by **Seravy** » Mon Sep 01, 2003 12:55 am

drifterx wrote:In many ways, Hourin was to blame and as Gekkei sought to punish the Emperor for the injustices done to the people so must he exact the same amount of punishment to the kirin. The kirin was supposed to be a merciful being and apparently that was a trait that Hourin failed to impart on the Emperor; failure that cost the lives out thousands of citizens.

Yep. And there isn't much Hourin could do. Retsu-ou is known for his iron-fist as well as his strict laws which allows no mercy in the first place. Kirins are known to be merciful and not uncommonly submissive. We've seen it more than once how their sense of compassion is always used against them in arguments (Kyou-ou talking to Kyouki and Keiki talking about the issue on Koukan also Kou-ou saying how he wants to save to world and forcing Kourin to do certain things).

We can safely assume that Hourin is probably merciful and by appearance, she looks submissive and is treated no more than a servant. Therefore, Retsu-ou would most probably dismiss any of Hourin's suggestions as mere naive sympathy for the people. Also, Retsu-ou's wife seemed to have a lot of influence over him so Hourin's influence over her lord is basically close to zero.

But if Hourin was given a second chance, she would probably improve and do better like Sairin and Keiki.

And, it seems like "backbone" in the breed of kirins either comes with age (surviving more than one king) or if their taikas (in the case of Taiki and Enki) Someone mentioned this before but the upbringing in the other world installs a sense of individuality and with it, forms of doubt that allows them to make choices that native-born kirins won't. And this lack of personality is deadly when the emperor loses his/her way since the kirin is probably use to following commands and just trust in their emperor. When the emperors lose their way, they wouldn't know what to do except to complain a little than do whatever it is their emperor wanted them to do.

Which brings me to the issue of sympathy for Hourin and Kourin. Even when they were plagued by Shitsudou, their emperors didn't really seem to care much about them, especially in Kourin's case. Shitsudou would work if the bond between the kirin and the emperor is strong like in the case of Sairin, Keiki and Enki but if the kirin is treated like any other servant, the king would just carry on until the kirin dies. So the kirin being punished if the emperor loses his/her way isn't quite effective...

(oops... very long ramble. sorry.)

darksuzaku · Post by **darksuzaku** » Mon Sep 01, 2003 1:18 am

He he, i say, Tentei's way of doing things is really weird.....
It has been said here that only one Kirin's ranka can grow at a time on Mt Hou and as Kou's ranka is growing now the one for Hou has to wait.....

but if i don't remember bad the events that lead to Hourin's death happened 3 years before Kourin dies, and at that time there was no other ranka growing so Hou's ranka could have started growing right away. It's not a matter of time to wait between the death of a Kirin and the appearance of the next Kirin's ranka for that country because after Kourin's death the new Kou's ranka started growing almost in no time......

I say, Tentei has a grudge against Hou for killing the Kirin and is pourpousely delaying the appearance of the next ranka as punishment.... Come on Tentei, come down here and give us a good explanation or feel the anger of the poor people of Hou that suffered first of a cruel emperor and now the devastating youma due to the lack of an emperor.

oion · Post by **oion** » Mon Sep 01, 2003 8:01 am

Lauren wrote:
drifterx wrote:The kirin was supposed to be a merciful being and apparently that was a trait that Hourin failed to impart on the Emperor
Personally, I don't agree with this point. The way it's set up, unfortunately, is that a kirin serves the emperor and the emperor has absolute power. His word is law and a taiho must obey it regardless of how terrible the orders are. A taiho can try to exercise influence over the emperor and beg him to stop doing the bad things he does (i.e.: Kourin), but ultimately, it's up to the emperor to follow that advice or not.

I don't think Hourin had any better chance at changing Retsu-ou than Kourin did of changing Shuuja.

I definitely agree with this; while a kirin has some responsibility in making sure the emperor doesn't remain ignorant of his/her people, that influence can extend only so far as long as the 12k world is set up with such a clear hierarchy. I'd also distinguish the relationship of kirin/emperor from that of minister/emperor (the next logical argument) - while clear subordinates must have some responsibility in the overall structure of things, as Shoukei admitted later to Suzu, the kirin in particular has a "holy" subordinate position to the emperor as decreed by Tentei and the heavens, while the human ministers were merely appointed politically. While treason is a serious issue, it seems to me the subordinate humans had more freedom than Hourin in resisting the emperor, and therefore these ministers and lords were more to blame than Hourin.

Though it's not entirely clear, it seems that going against the wishes of the emperor may mean death for the taiho, either at the hands of the emperor or by Tentei. Or perhaps it is impossible for a taiho to disobey his emperor, just as it's not possible for a taiho to bow and submit to anyone but his rightful ruler.

I don't agree with this entirely - death of the taiho by the hands of the emperor merely because the kirin goes against his wishes is illogical because the emperor would automatically die within a year afterwards. Death by shitsudou (i.e. the heavens) or by other human hands are the only logical means, unless the emperor is completely insane and kills his taiho for disagreeing with him... It also isn't impossible for a kirin to disobey an emperor - recall Kourin. Although in Kourin's case, and I suspect perhaps in general for all kirins, the only other choice in disobeying is death, but not necessarily by the hands of the emperor. I don't think we'll see many situations like this, though.

Curious how Hourin was treated in the books.

Ahiru · Post by **Ahiru** » Mon Sep 01, 2003 10:09 am

I think Hourin looked very much like she accepted her death, and didn't fight back. Kirins aren't exactly powerless (as we can see by Taiki's zealous protector... ^^; ) and there was more than enough time for her to call her allies in protection.
I think Hourin was very much aware of her mistake and probably being the nice thing all kirins are supposed to be, thought her death would be a just punishment (specially if she was already feeling guilty for not having been able to advice the emperor).

Ahiru

JK Newbie · Post by **JK Newbie** » Mon Sep 01, 2003 10:17 am

drifterx
Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2003 1:54 am Post subject:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
In many ways, Hourin was to blame and as Gekkei sought to punish the Emperor for the injustices done to the people so must he exact the same amount of punishment to the kirin. The kirin was supposed to be a merciful being and apparently that was a trait that Hourin failed to impart on the Emperor; failure that cost the lives out thousands of citizens. Thankfully, Gekkei's sense of justice prevailed before even more people died while Tentei was taking too much time waiting for shitsudou to take out the Emperor.

Gekkei did the right thing by any of our countries' standards. It may not agree with Tentei's way of doing things, which is why Hou is such an interesting case.

That conflict of humans not waiting for God to act, it's all part of assuming responsibility for actions in life. Many bad people seem to live long enough to do serious damage in 12k if not intervened by other people. Joseph Campbell made a sweeping statement that eastern religions tend to believe that God sets the stage but it is people who act upon it. God's time is slower than human time, meanwhile the terrible acts of humans on humans leaves a lesson of pain and suffering. Free will, illness, madness?
What's going on in Han? Sounds like that Kirin/Emperor relationship is ... different. Maybe we can learn more about the dynamics of power.

drifterx · Post by **drifterx** » Mon Sep 01, 2003 2:03 pm

This is quite true in our world but in the world of Juuni Kokki where there is a true heirarchy of immortals that goes all the way up to God, the actions of mere mortals become a lot more scrutinized within their lifetime, instead of waiting for judgement in some belief system's afterlife. It reminds me of old Greek legends where gods and demigods walked the earth and guided/manipulated the ways of men. Gekkei knows this and his sense of justice is also influenced by it, no matter how much he cares for his people's well-being. He refused their calls to take the throne time and again because of his sense of guilt and respect for the laws of Tentei.

How does this translate to Hourin's guilt? Simple. As much as Gekkei feels his guilt for ousting and killing his Emperor, so should Hourin for failing to protect the people from a misguided Emperor. I do not think the fault is in choosing but in failing to show the Emperor the right path, even Gekkei aknowledges how radiant the Emperor was at first. It is true that kirins seem to fall in the role of a 'holy subordinate' but there must be much more to them than that and Gekkei must have known this. I am hoping Enki can show us just that by the end of the series but nevertheless, such a collosal failure must not go unpunished. The difference between Gekkei and Hourin is, Gekkei is willing to dish out the punishment and has done so but no one is willing to punish Gekkei. This leads me back to what makes Hou so interesting.

Seravy · Post by **Seravy** » Mon Sep 01, 2003 3:27 pm

drifterx wrote: How does this translate to Hourin's guilt? Simple. As much as Gekkei feels his guilt for ousting and killing his Emperor, so should Hourin for failing to protect the people from a misguided Emperor.

Hourin's tear(s) before she was killed could be translated as guilt and she didn't refute any of the things that Gekkei accused her of. She did fail the people in a way but then, it shouldn't result in her death. Shouldn't she be given a chance to redeem herself just like Shoukei did? Kirins may be sacred creatures, but it doesn't mean that they won't make mistakes. and killing her is definately not a solution, rather creating another problem.

And it would probably be a lot easier for Gekkei to do the right thing (i.e. rebellion) than for a kirin. When Keiki was explaining to Taiki about his feelings towards Gyosou, Keiki talked about how kirins naturally want to be with their emperors and how no kirin will not be saddened by the death of his/her master. It seems like the bond on the kirin's side is much more complicated and emotional than that of a devoted servant. It would probably be as painful as killing a family member for a kirin to go against his/her lord. (Enki also said that no matter how much the kirin dislikes the character of the emperor, the kirin will still submit because that person is chosen. kindda shows how powerfully bonded a kirin is to his/her's emperor)

drifterx wrote: I do not think the fault is in choosing but in failing to show the Emperor the right path

but Hourin was incapable of showing the emperor the right way due to many factors; the queen, the king's laws of no mercy, and the kirin's opinion easily being ousted as mentioned before. Since any final decision still lies in the hand of the emperor, if Hourin can't convince the king (which she had no chance of doing), there's nothing else she can really do.

drifterx wrote: I am hoping Enki can show us just that by the end of the series but nevertheless, such a collosal failure must not go unpunished.

It's probably a little unfair to compare Hourin and Enki due to their difference in upbringing as well as the longer life that Enki got to experience.

And although the history we've seen so far is just a small part of this world, we have yet to see a kirin starting a rebellion or doing something dractic to change an emperor.

*looks up* and drifterx, I like how you could make your point concisely...

drifterx · Post by **drifterx** » Mon Sep 01, 2003 4:52 pm

I find it hard to believe that a creature who has the power to choose the ruler of a kingdom could not do more for the thousands that were slaughtered because of that ruler's insane and irrational behavior. Unlike Shoukei, Hourin knew full well of what was going on, without benefitting from any self-delusion. The comparison to what Enki is going through is more than fair because we can see what kirins are capable of, despite of their feelings for their chosen ones. Do they choose to blindly obey without fully understanding what their Emperors are truly like or do they follow the correct path, no matter how difficult it may be? It is really not fair to say Hourin did nothing, but it is more than fair to say she accomplished nothing and allowed a great harm to befall the people of Hou.

Whether Gekkei should have allowed Tentei to pass on the natural laws is debatable, but it is difficult to ignore the deaths and those he prevented by his actions. It is clear that Tentei was in favor of punishing the Emperor and his kirin. In most cases (of what I know of), the punishment is usually fatal. Could we then argue that Tentei is wrong in punishing Hourin?

Seravy · Post by **Seravy** » Mon Sep 01, 2003 6:26 pm

drifterx wrote:I find it hard to believe that a creature who has the power to choose the ruler of a kingdom could not do more for the thousands that were slaughtered because of that ruler's insane and irrational behavior.

Kirins do not have the power to choose a ruler. The decision was already made and reveals itself in the form of a revelation. And just because they choose an emperor, it does not automatically make them resourceful beings.

Yes, kirins have power but it does not automatically make them strong contributors to the kingdom. They are creatures with emotions and are quite naive due to their carefree upbringing in Hou San. No matter how old they look, they are but children in the world of politics and reality.

It's quite sad actually as once they choose an emperor, they are suddenly pulled from their comfortable home in Hou San and given a huge amount of responsibility. And without earning their rank, they hold the second highest position in the kingdom without any real experience. So, even with all the power, they wouldn't really know how to use it.

drifterx wrote: Unlike Shoukei, Hourin knew full well of what was going on, without benefitting from any self-delusion. The comparison to what Enki is going through is more than fair because we can see what kirins are capable of, despite of their feelings for their chosen ones.

Hourin knew but without actually experiencing or seeing any of those things with her own eyes. Gekkei and the other people felt everything and saw everything first hand. Without that part of realism, it is much harder for Hourin to overcome her obediance to her lord. And it seems like kirins spend most of their time inside the palace and most likely by the side of their emperors. Their interaction with other people is minimal and their high rank prohibits people from talking to them as equals so honesty is hard to get as well as the backing of other people.

Enki had those three advisors who are truly loyal to him and would talk to him as equals but not every kirin is that lucky. He also had the belief that emperors and people with power are basically the cause of a kingdom's failure therefore, for him to doubt Shouryu would come naturally. Also, Enki only decided to take action after he was kidnapped and forced to truly listen. Hourin did not have that chance.

Hourin, on the other hand, believes much strongly in the existence of tentei and the power of the emperor. There would be a natural belief that the emperor is the chosen one therefore what he/she say must be right. It would be great during the peaceful times of the era but once the emperor loses his/her way and the kirin is so use to obeying, it would naturally be a lot harder. And due to their long years of submission and inexperience, they probably won't really know what to do when things get bad except to try to futilely convince the emperor.

drifterx wrote: Do they choose to blindly obey without fully understanding what their Emperors are truly like or do they follow the correct path, no matter how difficult it may be? It is really not fair to say Hourin did nothing, but it is more than fair to say she accomplished nothing and allowed a great harm to befall the people of Hou.

I believe that kirins do follow the correct path in the end. It's in their nature. No matter how much Kou-oh pushed Kourin or how she submitted to him, she chose the correct path in the end (Kourin did refuse to kill Youko and chose to give up her life to stop Kou-oh). I think it would only be a matter of time before Hourin truly took action.

And it seems that kirins are made with this flaw of submission, because if they were so compassionate and capable, they should be rulers themselves.

drifterx wrote: Whether Gekkei should have allowed Tentei to pass on the natural laws is debatable, but it is difficult to ignore the deaths and those he prevented by his actions. It is clear that Tentei was in favor of punishing the Emperor and his kirin. In most cases (of what I know of), the punishment is usually fatal. Could we then argue that Tentei is wrong in punishing Hourin?

Shitsudou is already the punishment as with the death of the emperor. When Retsu-oh died, the deaths would have stopped. Killing Hourin would not change it anymore, it's more of an option. Tentei is not wrong to punish Hourin but whether her life should be taken is another issue.

*looks up* my rambling-ness is getting worse... -.-;;

oion · Post by **oion** » Mon Sep 01, 2003 7:06 pm

drifterx wrote: I do not think the fault is in choosing but in failing to show the Emperor the right path, even Gekkei aknowledges how radiant the Emperor was at first. ..

You're forgetting the fundamental issue that it's still the emperor's final decision in whether they will listen to their kirin or not. On what do you base your assumption that Hourin didn't show him the path? Showing is not the same as forcing someone to TAKE the path, which are completely different things. You show someone the door, it's his choice to open it. etc. Taken with the basic assumption that a kirin must always follow the emperor's orders, the ultimate decision still rests in the emperor. She barely got any screen time as it is, so we can't assume that she didn't try to do something about it somewhere, even if all she could do was advise like Kourin did for her emperor. If you're referring to something in the novels, I'd like to know about it - or point to time indexes in the eps, since I don't remember every little detail these days.

Let's not forget that the emperor was particularly naive, in Gekkei's terms. "Radiant" might be one wayt to describe him, but it's still a fundamental preexisting flaw.

Did Hourin really know? (Besides shitsudou itself, that is) Up to what point was she already so ill with shitsudou that she was bedridden and couldn't advise him anymore?

oion · Post by **oion** » Mon Sep 01, 2003 7:11 pm

Seravy wrote:
drifterx wrote: Whether Gekkei should have allowed Tentei to pass on the natural laws is debatable, but it is difficult to ignore the deaths and those he prevented by his actions. It is clear that Tentei was in favor of punishing the Emperor and his kirin. In most cases (of what I know of), the punishment is usually fatal. Could we then argue that Tentei is wrong in punishing Hourin?

Shitsudou is already the punishment as with the death of the emperor. When Retsu-oh died, the deaths would have stopped. Killing Hourin would not change it anymore, it's more of an option. Tentei is not wrong to punish Hourin but whether her life should be taken is another issue.

Agreed - this is a completely different issue. Yes, Hourin received the shitsudou rightfully, but when the blight itself (i.e. the emperor) is removed, must Gekkei (not the Heavens) kill the creature of mercy?

Importantly, I think kirin just like other intelligent creatures tend to learn from their mistakes. If anything, having a weirded out ruler at first should make the kirin better advisors second time around, at least.

drifterx · Post by **drifterx** » Mon Sep 01, 2003 10:26 pm

As you have already said and what prompted Gekkei to take action, the Emperor was set in his way and from what we know of shitsudou, he and his kirin are doomed to death. Gekkei merely hastened the blow. So if we take out Gekkei in the equation, Hourin would have eventually died along with her miscreant Emperor! So there must be something going on, in the grand scheme of things, that tells us Hourin is partly responsible for the deaths of the innocents in Hou. We may never know to what extent but the alternative is to question the authority of Tentei, and we all know that never works.

My POV is, we all seem to be caught up in what we think Hourin didn't do or what she should have done but the fact of the matter is, she supported the Emperor and so she and any official who stood by the Emperor is guilty of atrocities. It is rather naive to think that she did not know what was going on outside the castle walls, but who knows. Even if she did not know, that in itself is a failing and she should not be compared to Shoukei who is a mere blood relative and held no official power or authority. We also know for sure that Shoukei did not know what was going on or was too deluded with her happy life. I think Hourin suffering from shitsudou would have had a big freaking clue of what was going on.

Think of it this way, how can Gekkei allow a creature that was sent by Tentei to 'choose' the emperor (as if anyone else can do this?) live after all the killings? What kind of justice has he accomplished if he lets go the other half of the terrible regime, no matter how 'merciful' kirins are? She undoubtedly failed in her role, and since that failure led, directly or indirectly who knows, to the deaths of thousands of innocents then the failure is justifiably fatal. Did she deserve mercy? Maybe. That is not for us to decide really. Given the gravity of the atrocities, I tend to lean towards a clean sweep and punishing those who willfully participated or allowed them to happen. Would letting her live made things better? That's a moot point because from what I've seen, Hou already has a capable interim leader in Gekkei. It would all be in Tentei's hands in any case.

Seravy · Post by **Seravy** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 8:46 am

drifterx wrote:As you have already said and what prompted Gekkei to take action, the Emperor was set in his way and from what we know of shitsudou, he and his kirin are doomed to death. Gekkei merely hastened the blow. So if we take out Gekkei in the equation, Hourin would have eventually died along with her miscreant Emperor!

I remember somebody said (En-ou?): if the king died before the kirin, the kirin had a chance to survive. But if it's the other way around, the king would died within a year.

drifterx wrote: My POV is, we all seem to be caught up in what we think Hourin didn't do or what she should have done but the fact of the matter is, she supported the Emperor and so she and any official who stood by the Emperor is guilty of atrocities.

Then everyone in the ministry of Hou is guilty and deserve the same punishment as Hourin's. And they are guilty of following orders that they all know is wrong.

No matter what, if no one in the ministry carried out Retsu-ou's orders, the kingdom would not be in the state that it is in. And at some point, all of them must have carried out orders. Surely one would argue that they were just following commands but that's exactly Hourin's crime as well.

So Gekkei took the extreme but right action. However, kirins are against all forms of violence. Even Enki said he had difficulty understanding the need to sacrifice a small group of people for the greater good. And kirins are not known to start things or take the lead. We don't know but if Gekkei went and tried to convince Hourin to help (who is probably sick on the bed, not being able to do much anyways) with some visual aide (grand tour of the Kingdom of Hou), I'm sure she would had helped. If by then she didn't, then I wouldn't have anything else to say.

and this type of loyalty of a kirin is needed. Imagine if the majority of the kingdom is against the emperor (Youko's case), he/she would at least have the support of her/her's kirin and if they're lucky, a small part of the ministry.

drifterx wrote: It is rather naive to think that she did not know what was going on outside the castle walls, but who knows. Even if she did not know, that in itself is a failing and she should not be compared to Shoukei who is a mere blood relative and held no official power or authority. We also know for sure that Shoukei did not know what was going on or was too deluded with her happy life.

I didn't say that she did not know what was going on, rather she knew but without first hand experience and seeing the deaths and the state of the kingdom herself. (Maybe Gekkei could have kidnapped her and gave her a tour of the kingdom) Knowing still requires the imagination to produce an image but truly seeing it is another story. It's like reading in the newspaper about a mass killing. If one did not know the people personally or actually saw the slaughter, it's quite difficult to truly sympathize and take action. Sure one may grieve the tragedy but it's just so much more powerful to see it. Seeing is believing.

drifterx wrote: I think Hourin suffering from shitsudou would have had a big freaking clue of what was going on.

When one is so stubborn, they could easily misinterpret what is clearly in front of them. Hou-ou could had easily thought that Shitsudou is because of his laws still not being tight enough and his citizens were still sinning too much. And it seems like Shitsudou is not that uncommon and emperors don't truly regret their actions until it's too late. (i.e. Kou-ou knew full well what he was doing but it wasn't until Kourin died that he was truly scared and gave up.)

drifterx wrote: Think of it this way, how can Gekkei allow a creature that was sent by Tentei to 'choose' the emperor (as if anyone else can do this?) live after all the killings? What kind of justice has he accomplished if he lets go the other half of the terrible regime, no matter how 'merciful' kirins are?

The choosing is just a small power, despite nobody else being able to do it. After a kirin chooses an emperor, it's a whole new ball game and totally irrelevant to what happens after it. And how she is half the regime when she doesn't even make a quater of the decisions? Kirin is the emperor's other half but how often do we see the kirin actually being treated with that sort of respect by the emperor.

Gekkei and the other ministry members are just as guilty as Hourin so why should she be treated so much differently? their disposition is quite similar; servants, except Hourin did not start the rebellion.

drifterx wrote: Would letting her live made things better? That's a moot point because from what I've seen, Hou already has a capable interim leader in Gekkei. It would all be in Tentei's hands in any case.

Yes. It would. Forgiveness is the highest form of punishment and mercy. Hourin would have to live with the guilt of inadvertedly causing the death of so many citizens as well as working to redeem those deaths. It would not erase the harm but at least something is done to help. And her dying wouldn't solve anything, instead, with her alive, they could then find another king without waiting another decade or more for another kirin. Without a chosen emperor on the gyokuza, natural disasters and youmas will still continue to infest the country.

Codex · Post by **Codex** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 3:14 pm

Seravy wrote:
drifterx wrote:As you have already said and what prompted Gekkei to take action, the Emperor was set in his way and from what we know of shitsudou, he and his kirin are doomed to death. Gekkei merely hastened the blow. So if we take out Gekkei in the equation, Hourin would have eventually died along with her miscreant Emperor!
I remember somebody said (En-ou?): if the king died before the kirin, the kirin had a chance to survive. But if it's the other way around, the king would died within a year.

Yes, but shitsudou works by killing the kirin. The kirin would die first, and the emperor would follow within a year.

Seravy wrote: ... her dying wouldn't solve anything, instead, with her alive, they could then find another king without waiting another decade or more for another kirin. Without a chosen emperor on the gyokuza, natural disasters and youmas will still continue to infest the country.

That's a very important point, which is why I think the killing of Hourin was deliberately thought out and was, in a way, an act of mercy. I don't know the backstory concerning Sairin, but I think it is not far off to say that the reigns of bad Sai-Ou's did not even come close to the extreme bloodshed in the Kingdom of Hou. In other words, the people of Hou feared and hated Hou-Ou with a passion, and if this anger still manifested itself so violently four years later against Shoukei (who did not play a role in Hou-Ou's reign), how much more cruelly would they act against the kirin who was supposed to have been the emperor's closest advisor? Would they reverently kneel before Hourin as she travelled across Hou searching for the next Emperor? I'd imagine there'd be hordes of vengeful Hou citizens waiting to lynch her, sacred animal or not. In other words, 1) Hourin would have suffered tremendously if she lived and 2) the people of Hou would not stand for her, and with so much pain and anger associated with the emperor's reign, they needed a completely fresh start.

Gekkei's last words to her may have been spoken out of anger and spite, but the quick beheading was an act of mercy for both the people and Hourin.

Seravy · Post by **Seravy** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 3:52 pm

Codex wrote: Yes, but shitsudou works by killing the kirin. The kirin would die first, and the emperor would follow within a year.

but at the same time, if the king was killed for example and died before the kirin, than the kirin might survive shitsudou.

Codex wrote: That's a very important point, which is why I think the killing of Hourin was deliberately thought out and was, in a way, an act of mercy. I don't know the backstory concerning Sairin, but I think it is not far off to say that the reigns of bad Sai-Ou's did not even come close to the extreme bloodshed in the Kingdom of Hou. I'd imagine there'd be hordes of vengeful Hou citizens waiting to lynch her, sacred animal or not. In other words, 1) Hourin would have suffered tremendously if she lived and 2) the people of Hou would not stand for her, and with so much pain and anger associated with the emperor's reign, they needed a completely fresh start.

Yes, the situation in Hou was definately worst. Wasn't 30 thousand people killed within just a year? but at the same time, because it was so terrible, Hourin should be the one to fix the error. Just thought that if Hourin became a truly good advisor and contributor to the kingdom, the people's hatred would be pacified though not forgotten. But the fresh start is a very good point. The majority of people could not be so forgiving as Gekkei to Shoukei. I doubt anybody is going to Hou San when the time comes to choose the next emperor. (In the ep definitions of 27 or 26, it said that Sairin went back to Hou San to choose the next emperor)

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