...Just my observation...
I'm just thinking... You knows what's weird, Suzu came to the world of the 12 countries during the Meiji Era. That's approx. 100 years before Yoko came. Apparently, technology from Japan during the Meiji until the present has drastically advanced. I am just wondering, why the technology of the 12 Countries did not progress. With Keikyakus coming from different time phases, there should be at least an influence of technology development coming from somewhere. I'm also aware that there's not that many keikyaku's coming from Japan, but still even with the language barrier, they can at least bring a spec of technological influence then. Even without keikyakus, would you still wonder why anyone haven't invented gun powder yet? I'm also wondering where the heck did ASANO obtain that pistol.
The 12 Kingdom's Technological Advancement ..
Moderator: zitch
Re: The 12 Kingdom's Technological Advancement ..
Asano got the gun from someone who was selling it in a town -- it had washed ashore after a shoku.
I'm not as surprised at the lack of progress. In Tokoyo, a lack of progress is a good thing most of the time. If the people follow Tentei and remain pretty much in balance, then all is well. If they don't, the land becomes infertile and the youma move in.
There are two types of technology that would be particularly useful to them: farming improvements and military technology. The former is less surprising, since no modern farming equipment is likely to be sucked into Tokoyo. Anything bigger than a plow would be far too heavy. There could be kaikyaku farmers with more advanced knowledge, but the general consensus seems to be that if all is well with the emperor, the people will be able to farm as much as they need. Only an unbalanced kingdom's people would be dissatisfied enough to try to force more, and they're probably cowering in fear of youma anyway. And perhaps they have learned from the kaikyaku -- the farmers are more invisible to us in this show than the leaders.
Military improvements are more dubious. A gun is small enough to transport, but if an emperor moves against another country, it's shitsudou time. So they'd be used only by leaders with a chip on their shoulder and something to prove. Defensively, they could work as well, but their primary use would seem to be internally, inciting and defusing rebellion. If a kingdom was declining, I could see local lords stockpiling any rifles they could get their hands on. But then, these people have touki, and as someone mentioned earlier, can a bullet kill an immortal?
Transportation is another area that could benefit from kaikyaku knowledge, but with kijyuu available, they have fast transportation and communication compared to most modern means. Cars and such just wouldn't be supported without several centuries of industrial development.
Perhaps electricity? That much should be able to make it's way over, but mass production would be difficult for an agrarian society. As a novelty for the royalty, at least, it seems it would at least be known.
The system seems to be set up to discourage change. I wonder how long that will work. As a modern kaikyaku, Youko probably has the knowledge to make some of these changes in her country if she ever has time to return to the palace. En also could make use of these, since they have enough kaikyaku to create a registry and deal with them. But doing so would upset the balance, so I wonder if it would really happen.
I'm not as surprised at the lack of progress. In Tokoyo, a lack of progress is a good thing most of the time. If the people follow Tentei and remain pretty much in balance, then all is well. If they don't, the land becomes infertile and the youma move in.
There are two types of technology that would be particularly useful to them: farming improvements and military technology. The former is less surprising, since no modern farming equipment is likely to be sucked into Tokoyo. Anything bigger than a plow would be far too heavy. There could be kaikyaku farmers with more advanced knowledge, but the general consensus seems to be that if all is well with the emperor, the people will be able to farm as much as they need. Only an unbalanced kingdom's people would be dissatisfied enough to try to force more, and they're probably cowering in fear of youma anyway. And perhaps they have learned from the kaikyaku -- the farmers are more invisible to us in this show than the leaders.
Military improvements are more dubious. A gun is small enough to transport, but if an emperor moves against another country, it's shitsudou time. So they'd be used only by leaders with a chip on their shoulder and something to prove. Defensively, they could work as well, but their primary use would seem to be internally, inciting and defusing rebellion. If a kingdom was declining, I could see local lords stockpiling any rifles they could get their hands on. But then, these people have touki, and as someone mentioned earlier, can a bullet kill an immortal?
Transportation is another area that could benefit from kaikyaku knowledge, but with kijyuu available, they have fast transportation and communication compared to most modern means. Cars and such just wouldn't be supported without several centuries of industrial development.
Perhaps electricity? That much should be able to make it's way over, but mass production would be difficult for an agrarian society. As a novelty for the royalty, at least, it seems it would at least be known.
The system seems to be set up to discourage change. I wonder how long that will work. As a modern kaikyaku, Youko probably has the knowledge to make some of these changes in her country if she ever has time to return to the palace. En also could make use of these, since they have enough kaikyaku to create a registry and deal with them. But doing so would upset the balance, so I wonder if it would really happen.
I think there is very little to encourage tech change.
First of all most countrys are being smashed back to bed rock every few years. Imagine how hard it would be to build a modern city if it kept being destroyed every 100 years or so.
Secondly the culture is wrong for tech advances. The culture in the JK is that you follow the guy above you and everything is fine. To create inventions you need people willing to think outside the box and try new things. Not something that is encouraged. The biggist thing to happyness is how the emp is doing not how well you are doing
Finally related to the first two most the of advances in japan for the last oh 200-300 years or so have come from outside japan. They are good at incrimental advances but compleatly new inovation is not japans strength. The JK does not have trade from the outside, the kaikakyu can bring in ideas but they would rarely if ever have the books and knowlage in order to create high tech. This makes some sense as i could tell you how a car works but not how to build one. The JK is almost certinaly not getting the referance materials and specialists needed to upgrade its tech.
First of all most countrys are being smashed back to bed rock every few years. Imagine how hard it would be to build a modern city if it kept being destroyed every 100 years or so.
Secondly the culture is wrong for tech advances. The culture in the JK is that you follow the guy above you and everything is fine. To create inventions you need people willing to think outside the box and try new things. Not something that is encouraged. The biggist thing to happyness is how the emp is doing not how well you are doing
Finally related to the first two most the of advances in japan for the last oh 200-300 years or so have come from outside japan. They are good at incrimental advances but compleatly new inovation is not japans strength. The JK does not have trade from the outside, the kaikakyu can bring in ideas but they would rarely if ever have the books and knowlage in order to create high tech. This makes some sense as i could tell you how a car works but not how to build one. The JK is almost certinaly not getting the referance materials and specialists needed to upgrade its tech.
If your spirit has wings to travel, even across the breadth of a thousand million nights, imagination will guide the way and the gateway will always be open to you.
QUACK QUACK!!!
QUACK QUACK!!!
The world of Tokoyo is governed by immortal beings. It is often assumed that immortals do not like change and advancement in technology is probably something they're allergic to. 
All kidding aside, Tokoyo is the closest thing to 'kingdom of heaven' as it is ruled by a very involved deity. Imagine a world permanently ruled by the teachings of the Bible or the Q'uran. I would imagine not much will change as the people must abide by them and are in turn dependent on the grace of Tentei, thus the lack of creativity on their part. It is all very interesting.
All kidding aside, Tokoyo is the closest thing to 'kingdom of heaven' as it is ruled by a very involved deity. Imagine a world permanently ruled by the teachings of the Bible or the Q'uran. I would imagine not much will change as the people must abide by them and are in turn dependent on the grace of Tentei, thus the lack of creativity on their part. It is all very interesting.
Very well put... Balance is the keyword for the existense of Tokoyo. Culture and beliefs RULE over individuality and creativeness. Tokoyo is a prime example of harmony due to balance, lower beings dependency from higher beings. This makes JK a very interesting place to illuminate imaginative bliss.
All that's left is electricity and movie houses.. so when I get sucked up and transported there.. I won't get bored.. bwahahahaha 
All that's left is electricity and movie houses.. so when I get sucked up and transported there.. I won't get bored.. bwahahahaha 
Technology change
It is fairly obvious that the twelve kingdoms is in a state of relative technological stasis. This wasn't an uncommon state, historically and was true for much of human history, especially in Japan and China.
However, I don't think keikyakus would make any significant difference and change this. When you have no friends, no money, no status, no reference books, no tools, a static culture and don't speak the language, making a change in the technology level is HARD, even if you have the necessary skills. How many people here know what saltpetre (the major component of gunpowder) is, where it could be found and what it looks like?
The most usefull type of technology for them would probably be early industrial stuff, kick pedal looms, improved plows and the like. They seem to have roughly equivalent to 17th century stuff otherwise and don't have the infrastructure for modern technology. Military technology is good for attracting attention and rich sponsors, but its the little things like that which are really important. (It wasn't until the middle of the 19th century when guns became more effective than medieval bows, they were just easier to use.) I'd bet nobody here knows how to build anything like that.
As for cities being destroyed every hundred years, that's no restriction on building a modern city. 60 years ago, practically every city in Japan and Germany was reduced to rubble. They were rebuilt in about a decade.
However, I don't think having low technology is a good thing. By all accounts, Tai is a pretty miserable place to live, even in good times. It's bitterly cold. And the life of a peasant is not comfortable, no matter what. Cast iron stoves, cheap steel tools, cheap cloth, ways to preserve food, antisepsis, movable type and decent roads would do a lot to reduce the misery of life and they all require the beginnings of an industrial revolution.
However, I don't think keikyakus would make any significant difference and change this. When you have no friends, no money, no status, no reference books, no tools, a static culture and don't speak the language, making a change in the technology level is HARD, even if you have the necessary skills. How many people here know what saltpetre (the major component of gunpowder) is, where it could be found and what it looks like?
The most usefull type of technology for them would probably be early industrial stuff, kick pedal looms, improved plows and the like. They seem to have roughly equivalent to 17th century stuff otherwise and don't have the infrastructure for modern technology. Military technology is good for attracting attention and rich sponsors, but its the little things like that which are really important. (It wasn't until the middle of the 19th century when guns became more effective than medieval bows, they were just easier to use.) I'd bet nobody here knows how to build anything like that.
As for cities being destroyed every hundred years, that's no restriction on building a modern city. 60 years ago, practically every city in Japan and Germany was reduced to rubble. They were rebuilt in about a decade.
However, I don't think having low technology is a good thing. By all accounts, Tai is a pretty miserable place to live, even in good times. It's bitterly cold. And the life of a peasant is not comfortable, no matter what. Cast iron stoves, cheap steel tools, cheap cloth, ways to preserve food, antisepsis, movable type and decent roads would do a lot to reduce the misery of life and they all require the beginnings of an industrial revolution.
Necessity
As for necessity being the mother of invention, I agree and think that the god imposed lack of war is going to have a significant affect on Technology change. The 12 different countries are not competing and no country really needs to worry about invasion from a neighbour. Therefore one of the most important driving forces for the development of military technology does not exist.
Incidently, does anyone know what the kingdoms use their armies for, apart from civil wars? I presume bandit and Youma hunting, but that wouldn't require large formations.
Incidently, does anyone know what the kingdoms use their armies for, apart from civil wars? I presume bandit and Youma hunting, but that wouldn't require large formations.
I believe it was mentioned in one of the episodes. The "army" is similiar to what a National Guard would be. Each province has its own provincial army in addition to the district policing force. Their purpose is to maintain the peace within a province, provide disaster relief where necessary, provide security where bandits/rebels/youmas are concerned. The reason there is also a large central army is because sometimes the rebels aren't just bandits and commoners but also other large-size military units such as provincial soldiers and/or citizen soldiers (like Johei's army of peasants which whooped Kei's imperial army's ass prior to Youko taking charge during the Johei insurrection).
The Big Cheese / The Head Rat
(not Rat King or Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle related)
(not Rat King or Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle related)
Saltpetre can be found in limestone caves that have bats roosting in them. It requires organic matter (Bat guano) Lime (you need an alkiloid base) moisture, free exposure to oxygen, and it needs to be undesterbed by wind, rain, and sun. It can actually be found in just about any cave but most likely in limestone ones. You can also find it where the above conditions are met in stables or cellers.
Saltpetre is a white crusty looking mineral that will form under these conditions, it can be identified in part due to its salty taste. (SALTpetre get it?)
Note this is a very general guide to Saltpetre.
Saltpetre is a white crusty looking mineral that will form under these conditions, it can be identified in part due to its salty taste. (SALTpetre get it?)
Note this is a very general guide to Saltpetre.
Incedently i could forge a rather basic gun using a standred mideavl smithy. I say basic because while i know how to forge and have done it i have not practiced enough to be proficient (modern collage classes are great)I'd bet nobody here knows how to build anything like that.
I was actually thinking if ALL the citys where destroyed and they had to rebuild from scratch without other countrys support which both germany and japan had. (the countrys in 12k do not seem to help each other often, certinaly not with international loans) Also everytime a country is smashed it is going to lose some information as its goverment colapses and librarys burn (re school of knowlage).As for cities being destroyed every hundred years, that's no restriction on building a modern city. 60 years ago, practically every city in Japan and Germany was reduced to rubble. They were rebuilt in about a decade.
If your spirit has wings to travel, even across the breadth of a thousand million nights, imagination will guide the way and the gateway will always be open to you.
QUACK QUACK!!!
QUACK QUACK!!!
LOL damn strait. What is the point of a fantasy world with high tech?Also, it may be worth mentioning that it would be a pretty lame fantasy world if it were just like ours.
Actually if you look at most fantasy you will see the time is scewed oddly. Look at Lord of the Rings. When the ring is forged they are at 14th century technology, 3 THOUSAND years later they are STILL at 14th century technology. 3,000 years ago the romans where just begining to think about conquest.
Also remember the human race has gone from steamboats to spaceships in 3 generations. Compare that to any fantasy timeline and the fantasy people are dragging their mental feet.
If your spirit has wings to travel, even across the breadth of a thousand million nights, imagination will guide the way and the gateway will always be open to you.
QUACK QUACK!!!
QUACK QUACK!!!
High Tech
"LOL damn strait. What is the point of a fantasy world with high tech?"
I don't think that it's bad that a fantasy world lacks high tech. However I do dislike it when it has incongrous tech, when it's generally low tech, but has radios and TV, for example. I also dislike it when they don't consider how the technology level affects how people live. Twelve Kingdoms scores very well on these counts, unlike a lot of other shows. However, I do think that introducing some improved technology would improve the lives of residents in a kingdom.
I don't think that it's bad that a fantasy world lacks high tech. However I do dislike it when it has incongrous tech, when it's generally low tech, but has radios and TV, for example. I also dislike it when they don't consider how the technology level affects how people live. Twelve Kingdoms scores very well on these counts, unlike a lot of other shows. However, I do think that introducing some improved technology would improve the lives of residents in a kingdom.
Lifestyles
90% or more of the population are peasant farmers. They seem to be rather better off than historical peasants, but that still is not an enviable lifestyle. They didn't chose to live like that. Having to sell your children to a brothel in order to survive a bad harvest is not a good life. Technology alows greater human freedom and security, and so is a good thing. A peasant live isn't nice at all.
Unless you're a nobleman watching the peasants toiling in your fields from a distance, in which case it's picturesque.
Unless you're a nobleman watching the peasants toiling in your fields from a distance, in which case it's picturesque.
Requirements for technological advancement
For a Kaiyaku to advance the technology, he'd have to know how to make something that the natives of the twelve kingdoms do not, but could build with their current tools. That's rather tricky. I'm not saying it's impossible. I am saying that you wouldn't get a one man industrial revolution.
About the numbers
The rate at which human knowledge has accelerated in the 20th century has a lot to do with population and demographics. At the end of the 19th century, there were less than 2 billion people in the world and the majority of them were involved in food production - farmers, hunters, fisherman, etc. Now, the world population is close to 6 billion and there are probably fewer farmers than there were at the end of the 19th century thanks to the industrialization of farming. While human civilization is thousands of years old, a large proportion of the humans who have ever lived are alive today. Furthermore, given the shift in demographics from a agrarian society to an industrial one, it is likely that the majority of scientists and engineers who have ever lived are alive today.
The JK world is still clearly an agrarian society, with only a handfull of scietists and engineers. Also, the rules of the universe are somewhat different, possibly leading to less motivation for technological advancement. Take medicine - the leading case of death for women in 1900 was complications in childbirth or pregnancy - this is not a problem in the JK world. Want to live a long life - get a govenment job. If the JK world existed in isolation, it would not surprise me that it had not advanced as fast.
However, there is a constant influx of Kaiyaku. The principles of many devices are taught to grade-school kids - whan I was 10, I knew how a steam engine worked and why airplane wings provided lift. I think it would not be hard for a Kaiyaku to work with a JK blacksmith to make a steam engine. I think a bright high-school student who had paid attention in science class could bring the JK world from its current level of technology to the level in our world around 1900 - Unless there were something in the laws of the JK world that prevented it.
The JK world is still clearly an agrarian society, with only a handfull of scietists and engineers. Also, the rules of the universe are somewhat different, possibly leading to less motivation for technological advancement. Take medicine - the leading case of death for women in 1900 was complications in childbirth or pregnancy - this is not a problem in the JK world. Want to live a long life - get a govenment job. If the JK world existed in isolation, it would not surprise me that it had not advanced as fast.
However, there is a constant influx of Kaiyaku. The principles of many devices are taught to grade-school kids - whan I was 10, I knew how a steam engine worked and why airplane wings provided lift. I think it would not be hard for a Kaiyaku to work with a JK blacksmith to make a steam engine. I think a bright high-school student who had paid attention in science class could bring the JK world from its current level of technology to the level in our world around 1900 - Unless there were something in the laws of the JK world that prevented it.
We do know that the laws of the JK world don't stop a gun from working. That argues very strongly that they have the same laws of physics, in general. If the girls watches weren't taken, we'd know if electronic devices function.
A major barrier to Kaiyaku driven technology advancement is the language barrier and the low status of Kaiyaku in most countries. Another would be the social structure and fatalism of the world.
On the other hand, there was a case of a 19th century french engineer who, under the patronage of one of the queens of Madagascar, created an industrialised zone from scratch.
Another point to consider is that given the blatantly artifical nature of the twelve kingdoms geography, they might not have any deposits of coal or oil. That would hurt their ability to industrialise beyond a certain level, although you can do a lot with water power.
However, given the way oil deposits seem to make a mess of any country in the world that isn't already industrialised, this may be a good thing if they ever make contact with the rest of the world.
A major barrier to Kaiyaku driven technology advancement is the language barrier and the low status of Kaiyaku in most countries. Another would be the social structure and fatalism of the world.
On the other hand, there was a case of a 19th century french engineer who, under the patronage of one of the queens of Madagascar, created an industrialised zone from scratch.
Another point to consider is that given the blatantly artifical nature of the twelve kingdoms geography, they might not have any deposits of coal or oil. That would hurt their ability to industrialise beyond a certain level, although you can do a lot with water power.
However, given the way oil deposits seem to make a mess of any country in the world that isn't already industrialised, this may be a good thing if they ever make contact with the rest of the world.
I believe it was stated that some medical knowledge has been brought into the 12K by Kaikyaku. (as well as Buddism) I assume that water power is in use in millraces.
Its rather stated that farmers have it fairly easy under a good emperor and that most people in JK manage to feed themselves with plenty left over for taxes. (excepting the cases where the tax burden was unjustly high)
The population doesn't have a general desire for luxuries, so there isn't a market to drive rapid improvement. Plus there isn't a shortage of magic, either. (man, I want me one o' dem Kijuu -- I hate commuting to work)
Its rather stated that farmers have it fairly easy under a good emperor and that most people in JK manage to feed themselves with plenty left over for taxes. (excepting the cases where the tax burden was unjustly high)
The population doesn't have a general desire for luxuries, so there isn't a market to drive rapid improvement. Plus there isn't a shortage of magic, either. (man, I want me one o' dem Kijuu -- I hate commuting to work)
personally i think the lack of improvement of technology is better.. well firstly cuz ppl dun have to worry bout the oil running out.. no need to worry the sudden shortage of electricity.. they only have to worry about the riding beasts.. 
plus the fact.. imagine if a certain country was to develop nuclear weapons.. there's no need to send army across the border n defy heaven's will.. just press the button n 'BOOM' Tentei will have to make new rules... XD
anyway.. if i wasn't wrong.. Yoko said sth about her watch not working. So i think electronics don't work there.. so that perhaps a reason why there's no great vast improvement in technology..
plus the fact.. imagine if a certain country was to develop nuclear weapons.. there's no need to send army across the border n defy heaven's will.. just press the button n 'BOOM' Tentei will have to make new rules... XD
anyway.. if i wasn't wrong.. Yoko said sth about her watch not working. So i think electronics don't work there.. so that perhaps a reason why there's no great vast improvement in technology..
They just have to worry about erosion of farmland destroying their ability to grow food. Worries about the environment/resources date back to the Ancient Greeks, if not before.Orlha wrote:personally i think the lack of improvement of technology is better.. well firstly cuz ppl dun have to worry bout the oil running out.. no need to worry the sudden shortage of electricity.. they only have to worry about the riding beasts..
For what purpose exactly? Besides, I imagine Tentei would regard that as divine punishment of the Emperor time.Orlha wrote:plus the fact.. imagine if a certain country was to develop nuclear weapons.. there's no need to send army across the border n defy heaven's will.. just press the button n 'BOOM' Tentei will have to make new rules... XD
Where and when? She lost her watch halfway through episode 2 and I don't remember seeing that.Orlha wrote:anyway.. if i wasn't wrong.. Yoko said sth about her watch not working. So i think electronics don't work there.. so that perhaps a reason why there's no great vast improvement in technology..
Episode 31
I've recently seen episode 31. Apparantly medicine, papermaking, ceramics and printing were introduced by Kaikyaku. This shows that some technological advances did occur due to contact with the other world.
However, none of these require much preliminary technology to work and are also the kinds of things an individual is likely to know and be able to do on his own.
However, none of these require much preliminary technology to work and are also the kinds of things an individual is likely to know and be able to do on his own.