What's your take on King/Queen and Kirin relationship

[purpleleaf]

I'm new with 12 Kingdoms and after watched all the anime (a few times) and read all the current fan base translation books, I would say their relationship is like a marriage (without the sex part of course ). As in a marriage, they need to be connected, be honest, care and love the other. However, I think in this marriage, the kirin got the sort end of the stick. I like En-ou comparison of how a kirin would choose a king - it like a woman chooses a man . Like some women I know, they would cling on their men despite of the abuse and cheating. It is particular more so in some of the Asian countries. On this lot of "wives" I feel sorry for Taiki the most. He is so devoted to Gyousou but the guy seems to care more about Taiki's kikin side and not so much on his emotional human side. Really, how would you feel if your spouse ship you off somewhere while doing things you despite the most and then try to smooth things over by being nice to you. Even Risai is the same way. She knows that if Taiki would find out about the winter hunt, he would be devastated. But she goes along with it any way . I hope they both learn their lesson and treat him right in the future.
I also find Youko, Keiki pair indeed troublesome. I see that they care and honest toward each other but not much love and connection. May be because they are new couple . That poor Keiki! He finally learn from Taiki of how to act toward people. The first person he shows his kindness to is his Queen and she ends up dead. That must be devastating for a kirin. Then he ends up with another queen. Poor guy! No wonder he keeps himself busy and tries to stay away. That got to be hard on him though consider how kirin dislike to be away from their masters. I hope on the future book (if there ever one ) Youko would do what Taiki did and help her kirin out.
Well that just me babbling on. I just like this series so much that I have to pour it out . Beside, the site has been quiet lately.

[endah]

purpleleaf, though I don't agree completely with you, I think your 'babbling' quite interesting:)

You asked in another thread, but in case you haven't found it, the rest of TKAS can be found here: www.ajisai-afuhana.blogspot.com.

Sometimes the relationships in TK could be described in its face value, a master-slave relationships. I don't like seeing it that way, though. However as you might have noticed, Ono sensei had somewhat tried to make it an issue, about how powerless Kirins are, subjected to their masters' will and their fate as Kirins.

[YoukoFanboy]

Hi all

I believe the best description is said in the anime: "the other half". They are the ying and yang, both complement the other. If you recall, when Keiki and Enki are explaining to Taiki about the Ouki (which btw, why didnt Keiki explained it like that from the begining and spared poor Taiki the torment he was having... LOL) he said something that it was very insightful: "the fact that you choose that person is in itself the revelation". For me I thing that implies that they are more than soulmates, they are one and the same. From the info that i have read and the novels and anime, I believe that the kirin choose one ruler and no more, they die with their first ruler... Keiki is the exception to that rule tho, and that may explain the relationship between him and Youko...but at the same time, maybe Tentei decided that neither Youko nor Keiki were ready to meet their counterpart and for that reason Keiki first chose his first ruler... speculation here, but i think it is interesting to think about it

[SkyeSpirit]

Sorry YoukoFanboy but what you said about Kirin picking only one ruler then dying and Keiki being an acception is wrong. The reason is that at least one other Kirin has also lost a previous ruler and that is Sairin. She lost her first ruler and had contracted Shitsudou but for some reason she lived which means somehow the ruler died first. Just like in Keiki's case if the ruler dies first the Kirin is spared thus goes on to find another ruler. I'm not sure why yet Sairin survived but in Keiki's case it was because his Queen killed herself so Keiki wouldn't die of Shitsudou. Maybe Sairin's former ruler died the same way or maybe he was assiassinated.

[purpleleaf]

endah,
Thank you for the link I found the site and following the translation. Like you, I don't like to think that king-kirin relationship as master-slave relationship. Kirins are representative of the land and people, to treat one as such is not wise. At least En-ou and Han-ou, the two long reign ruler, do not treat their kirin that way.

[YoukoFanboy]

Sorry YoukoFanboy but what you said about Kirin picking only one ruler then dying and Keiki being an acception is wrong. The reason is that at least one other Kirin has also lost a previous ruler and that is Sairin. She lost her first ruler and had contracted Shitsudou but for some reason she lived which means somehow the ruler died first. Just like in Keiki's case if the ruler dies first the Kirin is spared thus goes on to find another ruler. I'm not sure why yet Sairin survived but in Keiki's case it was because his Queen killed herself so Keiki wouldn't die of Shitsudou. Maybe Sairin's former ruler died the same way or maybe he was assiassinated.

You are absolutly right, i was reading Kaze Non Banri again and came across that, SkyeSpirit... That said, I still believe that there are more on the relation of Youko and Keiki that simpy she been a substitute ruler LOL... i dont know what yet, but i will be rambling on as we discuss this LOL... thanx for correcting me, i guess i missed the thing about Sairin the first time i read the novel

[purpleleaf]

Carmolita, you sure know a lot about JK ! I was wondering why Gekkei would kill Hourin. So that is why - she chose 2 bad rulers on the roll. Poor Hourin! She just did what Tentei wanted her to do.

keiki crying when he found out the girl that youko was staying with was dead.

I must miss this part. I don't recall him crying neither on the anime or the book .

[endah]

You're welcome, purpleleaf:)

Carmolita, that's an interesting bit about Hourin. However I think her shitsudou did matter a lot in her death. Kyou-Ou said no emperors (and kirins, probably) died unless they screw up and stray from the way (this is also why Taiki and Gyousou are still alive against the odds).

It's obvious that Hourin accepted her death, but probably without shitsudou her shirei wouldn't have let that happen. We know if it's Taiki, Sanshi and Gouran would bite Gekkei's head off before he did that, no matter what Taiki ordered them to. Especially nyokais, they would of course follow Kirins' order but it takes time because their first priority is Kirin' lives, unless it's for the the emperor's sake. So I just think shitsudou in a kirin somehow destroys this link and power. Because otherwise, it just didn't make sense, how her nyokai just let that happen.

I found fault in the way Kourin died in anime. It's simply 'unnatural' for an emperor to kill his kirin even though by accident, and it's even more unnatural for a kirin to kill herself like Kourin did, because all kirin knows their lives control the emperors' lives and they would never do anything to KILL their emperor, no matter how wrong the emperor became. Ono sensei shouldn't have altered that (or let other people alter that) just for the sake of entertainment. Kourin died of her shitsudou, after following her master till the very end of his ruin, and that's what kirins do.

As for Sairin and Keiki, they are 'lucky' because their previous emperors loved them (or the country) more than they loved themselves, so these kirins could be saved. However I think Sairin (no body knows what Keiki thinks) would have preferred her own death, what a poor kirin.

[YoukoFanboy]

Carmolita wrote:

I think keiki cares a lot about youko but just has trouble expressing himself.

Keiki was cold even before finding his first ruler, the Nyosen in Mt. Hou make that pretty clear during the Taiki Ark. He became a little more nicer after meeting Taiki and then his ruler went ahead and fell in love with him and all hell broke lose LOL. With Youko, I think he is begining to see that she really is capable of becoming a great ruler and starting to understand where she is coming from. Also, Keiki may be a cold Kirin, but he is a kirin nonetheless, he feels the same as other kirins (blissfull when at his ruler side, sad when they are apart) so he does care for Youko, even if he doesnt show it, his kirin nature will always win.

As for Gekkei, i actually find the rebelion unnecesary, because the king and kirin were going to die soon enough, Hourin had shitsudo and there was no way Hou-ou was going to change his ways, so it was going to end soon enough. I know, if Gekkei waited more people was going to die before the end of the dynasty, but still it was a great sin he committed and he knew it.

Back to Youko an Keiki, we have two strong personalities going at each other. In one hand we have Youko, until recently a very inmature, cold, serious and low self esteem woman that had to go through hell and back in order to change and become what she is now and Keiki, a cold, serious and also self doubting Kirin that went through a huge problem with his former ruler (almost dying in the process) so of course there has to be some friction between them. And remember, they started their King-Kirin relation on the wrong foot... he "kidnapped" her in Horai and she was a whinning crybaby. It would be great to see their relationship growing, tho, will love to see episodes dedicated only to their day to day activities together as ruler and kirin...

[purpleleaf]

I agree with Endah on Kourin. That part on the anime didn't suit me either. Considering when Renrin saw Taiki tried to commit suicide, the first thing she said was "you can not die. If you die, he will die". The ruler is everything to the kirin. I just can see a kirin would do such a thing.
As for the Hourin, you may be right about the shitsudou may have something to do with her shirei unable to protect her. However, I think once she accepted death there was nothing for her shirei to do but to let it be. It's like Sanshi when she tried to stop Taiki to enter Gouran's nest. She knew it was dangerous and wanted to grab Taiki's hand and drag him outside. But he said that he wanted to come in and she just couldn't disobey him.

I think Gekkei and Hou people did the rebellion because they just couldn't wait any longer. Gekkei said that 30,000 citizens were executed in one year. He just couldn't wait for another year or month. He would rather put the sin on himself than seeing thousand more people die. It the tough situation.

About Youko and Keiki, I also think that they care about each other every much. I just think that they don't understand and connect to each other. Keiki would get frustrated at Youko if she didn't seem to get something or have some "weird" ideal (although he's getting better). And Youko would keep geting astonished at the fact that Keiki was kind to Taiki. Come on, if this is your other half wouldn't you want to find out more about that person. May be I'm just being over critical toward them. After all, they are quite busy putting the kingdom back to its feet and not to mention that they're short handed. They probably just don't have time to chit chat with the other half .

[sallyliao]

I believe the best description is said in the anime: "the other half".

[Jinx999]

IMHO, these isn't one answer to the question. Each pair is different and behaves in different ways. Shoryu and Enki are old friends who spend their time sarastically insulting each other. Kourin, apart from some ineffectual protests, was her king's doormat and enabler. Youko and Keiki just plain don't understand each other. Taiki is like a rather confused step-child to Gyousou. Renrin is the effective ruler of the country while Ren-ou farms. Shushou thinks her Kirin is an idiot and isn't afraid to show it, treating him as a baby brother.

There isn't one and frankly shouldn't be one answer to the question. The kings and their kirin are all individuals with different personalities and beliefs. They should not be shoved into a number of identical boxes.

[Shokou]

Each kirin has his personality. People seem to confuse "gentle nature" with "being the same". Even kirin raised fully on Shouzan will be different...

[Jinx999]

I still think there are getting on Youko device simpy account she was replaced rulers LOL ... I do not know what, but I will walk in our discussion of this LOL ...

Another spammer. [sigh]

[Mab]

I don't think it's like a marriage at all, it's far too formal. I think it is just like the books describe it, it's more like a King and their high adviser. There is never any real compassion between the two, it never goes beyond the bounds of friendship. Just look at Keiki's previous King, and how she tried to make Keiki her husband basically. It was a total failure, and Keiki felt nothing towards her. Also, it turned out to be the laugh of the land(remember the traveling group that did plays to ridicule it?).

In the end, the Kirin IS bound by what the King decides and says, but I don't think it is a servant/master type situation either. The Kirin never willingly goes along with anything malicious or evil, and always keeps the kingdom's best interest in mind before they do something. They always have the free will and right to gripe and complain as much as they want about something a King does, so it really isn't subservient. In the end they are just like a high adviser though, their word isn't as high as the King's, and they are just there for advice and to be the pure voice of the council.

[Jinx999]

I don't think it's like a marriage at all, it's far too formal. I think it is just like the books describe it, it's more like a King and their high adviser. There is never any real compassion between the two, it never goes beyond the bounds of friendship. Just look at Keiki's previous King, and how she tried to make Keiki her husband basically. It was a total failure, and Keiki felt nothing towards her. Also, it turned out to be the laugh of the land(remember the traveling group that did plays to ridicule it?).

It depends on what you think the real fault was, her feelings towards Keiki or her breakdown when he didn't return her feelings and especially when she decided to exile the women from the kingdom out of jealousy. Also, it depends on your definition of marriage. You appear to be thinking about marriage in the majority 21st century western mold. Historically and in other cultures, marriage has been significantly different.

In the end, the Kirin IS bound by what the King decides and says, but I don't think it is a servant/master type situation either. The Kirin never willingly goes along with anything malicious or evil, and always keeps the kingdom's best interest in mind before they do something. They always have the free will and right to gripe and complain as much as they want about something a King does, so it really isn't subservient. In the end they are just like a high adviser though, their word isn't as high as the King's, and they are just there for advice and to be the pure voice of the council.

That can be answred in one word, Kourin. While she did whine (her responses don't really deserve to be called a protest), she did go along with her kings clearly malicious and destructive plans.

[Mab]

It depends on what you think the real fault was, her feelings towards Keiki or her breakdown when he didn't return her feelings and especially when she decided to exile the women from the kingdom out of jealousy. Also, it depends on your definition of marriage. You appear to be thinking about marriage in the majority 21st century western mold. Historically and in other cultures, marriage has been significantly different.

Marriage is always romanticized in literature throughout history. But also, in the world of the Twelve Kingdoms, marriage seems to be described as pretty compassionate. It's been a while since I've read the first book(i'm actually rereading it right now), but Rakushun has a pretty good passage describing how marriage generally works there. If I recall correctly, people generally get married because they do feel compassion towards each other. Yes, there are some arranged marriages for the purpose of land etc, but it didn't seem like that happened quite as often in that world. I might come back this more later after I get to that passage and it's fresh in my mind haha.

But yeah, I just think the fault is with the Kirin and the King, it doesn't seem at all like a marriage from the perspective of their world. I guess the argument could be made that it's a sort of arranged marriage, but I really don't buy that either.

That can be answred in one word, Kourin. While she did whine (her responses don't really deserve to be called a protest), she did go along with her kings clearly malicious and destructive plans.

Well not really, she was actually part of what I had in mind when I made my post. She isn't subservient at all. If you remember the bit in the forest when she was in front of a fatigued Yoko, the Emperor was demanding that she kill Yoko right there, and gave her the sword to do it. The whole time she was protesting, and she even said "I cannot!", and actually DIDN'T kill Yoko despite the King's orders. In the end all she did was jam the sword through her hand, even though the King clearly wanted Kourin to finish Yoko off.

[Nightheart]

I wrote my take on the king and kirin relationship in my fanfiction (with Yuka and Taiki in it). Yuka explains to an amnesiac Taiki what the relationship of king and kirin is in Twelve Kingdoms... "In order to keep a balanced rule a throne needs both a head and a heart. Sometimes a position of power demands actions that would go against what might be strictly morally right, sometimes harsh decisions must be made for when circumstances only give out options that are a choice between the lesser of two evils. In that case the head must rule. But Too many of these sorts of decisions can make empathy difficult. In order to rule a kingdom a throne must also take into account the sorrows and sufferings of a people. So a kingdom needs a head to rule wisely and a heart to rule well. The King is the head of state and the kirin is the heart of the throne." Is anyone's curious about the fic it's on fanfiction.net called "The Path of Sorrows, The Dragon Throne." Shameless Plug

[Shokou]

Nice, that's a good view. That's why the kirin's views aren't always taken seriously, it's their heartful nature. I feel bad for them when they have to see people suffering, no one suffers more than them when the kingdom is in bad hands.