Gekkei is admirable.

[Shokou]

My friend recently makde a perverted joke about Gekkei sending Shoukei to be abused by hags and lolis...but come on. In all seriousness, I thought Gekkei was a "Top 5" character for me.

Learning about his relationship with Chuutatsu, as well as his guilt over the murder, and trying to repent by showing Shoukei the light really touched me all 7 times I watched this series. I wish there was a novel just for Gekkei and Hou before Chuutatsu's death. Gekkei and Shoukei's development are symbols that you don't need to be a kaikyaku or taika to be a great character!

Do you guys appreciate the hero of the people of Hou?

[Juuni]

I don't appreciate him as much as I appreciate what he has done, as twisted as that may sound. To kill the emperor and his kirin for the good of the people, even though it's a sin, that takes strength. To govern in the king's place without taking full power upon yourself, that takes even greater strength.

I think Gekkei is the proverbial case: "I am what I am. Somebody has to be."

[Jinx999]

Gekkei is an admirable and noble character. My only complaint is that he failed to act earlier. It's the act of a friend to tell you "stop, you're being an idiot."

[Shokou]

Actually, my only complaint with him is that he killed Hourin(as discussed in the other topic).

But that gets phased by the fact he tried to compensate Chuutatsu by making his daughter learn more about the world.

[Tai Mai Shu]

Another event that further cemented my admiration for Gekkei is that the only reason he agreed to become the interim ruler of hou is so he can formally request that the queen of Kyou spare Shoukei from execution.

I thought Gekkei was a "Top 5" character for me.

As well as mine. My top 5 consists of Gekkei, the two Hanjyus (Kanta and Rakushun), and Lady Risai.
Interesting to note is that Shoko is another one of my favorite characters and I was going to use his name as my screen name.

I liked how Shoko was portrayed as despotic yet he (surprisingly) humbly steps down, and kneels before Yoko so she can behead him.
Once he realized that the gods have been watching him the entire time.
That scene showed how Shoko is a man of his word.
Prior to that I thought Shoko was another one of those characters who made up random rationales just to justify their actions.

[radiance]

I don't think the attempt to exonerate Gekkei by showing him to be unwilling to take the crown of Ho is successful. If he is meant to seem like a moral person who took on the heavy responsibility of bringing down the king, then he should have bowed out altogether. His murders are a bit too much for the depiction of him as a good guy to sustain. The queen? The Taiho? Who did they harm?

But of course his narrative function is mainly to set Shokei's story in motion, and that has to be done with horrors: her father's head on the floor, her mother killed before her eyes. So much for her to deal with. (And I couldn't do it.) But, a good guy? I don't see it.

[Jinx999]

The queen used to send her daughter's friends to death if they rivaled her in any way. She also encouraged Chuutatsu's weaknesses. Her execution was well deserved.

Hourin is a different case. However, she did accept her own death.

Essentially, Gekkei was then trapped. It's one thing to overthrow a tyrant. However, if you then leave, his domain would then fall into chaos and disaster. If you're remotely moral, you have a responsibility to prevent this and restore peace and justice to the land. Unless there is a "legitimate ruler" waiting in the wings, you have to step in and do it yourself. Except, then, instead of "liberating the people", you've overthrown the king and taken his place. You can't remain morally pure, you have to choose which would be the lesser evil.

[Shokou]

As well as mine. My top 5 consists of Gekkei, the two Hanjyus (Kanta and Rakushun), and Lady Risai.
Interesting to note is that Shoko is another one of my favorite characters and I was going to use his name as my screen name.

I liked how Shoko was portrayed as despotic yet he (surprisingly) humbly steps down, and kneels before Yoko so she can behead him.
Once he realized that the gods have been watching him the entire time.
That scene showed how Shoko is a man of his word.
Prior to that I thought Shoko was another one of those characters who made up random rationales just to justify their actions.

How nice, me too. He showed really well that behind cruel men there can always be humanity. I hated what he did, but he was so honest and brought a different view upon the Juuni Kokki world, that I really liked him.

Gekkei, though for a good cause, also did bad things. But I felt really moved by how guilty he feels, and how he thinks that what he was doing was in fact only trying to protect Chuutatsu's purity. Even if he's really loved by all around him, he doesn't let it get over his head. I like that a lot.

[Mab]

Shoukei is probably my favorite character in the series. So, I do agree that you don't need to be a kaikyaku or taika to be a good character either.

I still think that he was wrong to kill the Kirin though. He tried to justify it by saying that "you picked a bad ruler and we don't want that again". However, it is explained in the books that a Kirin's choice is absolute, and that anyone that they choose has the potential to be a great ruler(it just doesn't always turn out that way though). So, it's not like it was her fault in the first place. Also, a kingdom without a Kirin will suffer more calamity than one that has one. It takes time for a kirin to be born and mature, and THEN find a new king. If she was left alive a new ruler would have been selected in a much quicker time than it will now take, thus there will be less calamity and less harsh calamity as a result.

I think his intentions were good, but he made some mistakes and Hou will have to pay for those mistakes.

[mindstalk]

Shoukei is probably my favorite character in the series. So, I do agree that you don't need to be a kaikyaku or taika to be a good character either.

I still think that he was wrong to kill the Kirin though. He tried to justify it by saying that "you picked a bad ruler and we don't want that again". However, it is explained in the books that a Kirin's choice is absolute, and that anyone that they choose has the potential to be a great ruler(it just doesn't always turn out that way though). So, it's not like it was her fault in the first place. Also, a kingdom without a Kirin will suffer more calamity than one that has one. It takes time for a kirin to be born and mature, and THEN find a new king. If she was left alive a new ruler would have been selected in a much quicker time than it will now take, thus there will be less calamity and less harsh calamity as a result.

I think his intentions were good, but he made some mistakes and Hou will have to pay for those mistakes.

Yeah, plus from everything else we're told, the choice is Heaven's, and the kirin is just a conduit. But maybe he couldn't believe that.

[Jinx999]

Or possibly, if he didn't kill her, she'd have been lynched, as nearly happened to Shoukei. So he was giving her a quick and easy death. The question of Hourin's death is one of the mysteries of the series.

Mab, are you using Shoukei where you mean Gekkei?

[Mab]

Nope, I meant Shoukei. She is probably my favorite character. And I doubt the Kirin would have been lynched. Normal people don't even have access to the palace or anything. And there was really never any feeling of contempt towards her from the people, just at the King.

[Jinx999]

Nope, I meant Shoukei. She is probably my favorite character. And I doubt the Kirin would have been lynched. Normal people don't even have access to the palace or anything. And there was really never any feeling of contempt towards her from the people, just at the King.

We don't know that. It never came up.

We do know is that even years later, the king was hated enough that they were going to split his daughter like a wishbone. I imagine the person (popularily supposed to be) responsible for picking the king would have been even less popular. The fact that the kirins don't have much choice in the matter is NOT widely known - only Kings and Kirin and not all of them seem to know. Even most would-be-kings don't know.

[mindstalk]

OTOH, as mentioned, the people can't easily get at the kirin to lynch her, what the the palace and armies and shirei and all.

[Mab]

We don't know that. It never came up.

We do know is that even years later, the king was hated enough that they were going to split his daughter like a wishbone. I imagine the person (popularily supposed to be) responsible for picking the king would have been even less popular. The fact that the kirins don't have much choice in the matter is NOT widely known - only Kings and Kirin and not all of them seem to know. Even most would-be-kings don't know.

I'm not really sure what part of my little post you meant by your first part.

But, there is always a feeling in the series/books of compassion towards the Kirin. People know that it is like a god or divine creature that has graced their earth. Yes, Shoukei was hated, she was the daughter of the King, and she was also arrogant(and thus hated more for that). Whether or not normal people know the part about the "divine selection"(or whatever you want to call it), wasn't really my point. Take Keiki for example. He picked a terrible ruler, that banished/killed nearly all the women in the entire kingdom. But I recall that the citizens were all excited and glad when he was making his return to Kei. And even when the fake queen took her throne and was showing Keiki, the citizens were excited, EVEN though he had just picked a terrible ruler previously.

[Shokou]

I think people still respect the kirin as a divine creature, even if they don't know that they don't actualy choose the kings. I think Gekkei "overdid it", maybe he did it because he was in a moment of rage/wanted to cause more impact on Shoukei. Either way, I still think he did more good than harm, because he's a good temporary ruler and everyone loves him and wants him to rule until the new king comes.

[Mab]

I think people still respect the kirin as a divine creature, even if they don't know that they don't actualy choose the kings. I think Gekkei "overdid it", maybe he did it because he was in a moment of rage/wanted to cause more impact on Shoukei. Either way, I still think he did more good than harm, because he's a good temporary ruler and everyone loves him and wants him to rule until the new king comes.

Mmm, I don't think he's done more good than harm. He was doing more good than harm by removing the king, but once he killed the Kirin the harm to good ratio had just been way overdone. An interim ruler is never gonna be anywhere near as good as the real thing in the world of the Twelve Kingdoms.

Officials are all in the divine registry, they know of all the customs in detail and how the "divine selection" works, it just makes no sense for him to kill Hourin. Doing that just brings more calamity.

[Shokou]

I may be assuming things, but I think it's safe to assume the heavens won't go so hard on a kingdom being ruled by temporary rulers as long as they're good: considering how it was made a plot point to consider that a "government under the moon" can be effective, I wouldn't think it becomes as bad as Kou.

[Shokou]

Attack of smart bots!

[Nightheart]

I feel a little bit sorry for him to be honest. It is clear he had a deep admiration for chuutatsu, his king, and he had wanted him to be the ruler they hoped for, but then he was all but forced by circumstances to slay the king, his conniving wife and poor Hourin. The kirin's time was nearly up seeing as she would have been going through shitsudo anyway. What I don't understand is why he didn't let her live to recover and pick a new king, the only thing I can think of was that he wanted to wipe the slate clean with a new kirin... but that doesn't really make sense, you'd think that if he was eagre for a new king he'd have left the kirin alive so she could quickly choose another instead of having to wait another ten or eleven years for a new ranka to appear on my hou and then for the krin to get old enough to start up the shouzan.
Anyway, I digress, my original point was I feel just a little bit sorry for him because if you read Kasho no Yume, he clearly does everything in his power to get out of having to take the throne during the interregnum. He even tricks the court into appointing the chosai as the head of the ministers and, like a schoolboy playing hookey, slips off right back to his proving leaving the ministers doing a collective "Hey wait a minute!" He only takes on interim royal authority in order to prevent Shokei from being reprimanded by Queen Kyou (??). On a side note, doesn't it sometimes seem like he has a little bit of a thing for Shokei? I mean, he's always trying to rescue her and do stuff for her.... Just saying. ^_^

[Shokou]

I think it's a fatherly thing, he's known Chuutatsu for long and he saw Shoukei grow up, and when he killed Chuutatsu's corrupt wife in front of her and sent her to that Rike, he made clear that he was trying to teach her a lesson. Even though she hated him at first, she ended up realizing how important he was for her. It's also likely that he was trying to fill up for Chuutatsu: he felt guilty for killing him and had to repay him by helping his daughter grow as a person.

[Nightheart]

I can see that it was a redemption on his part, looking after Shokei and trying to make her realize her errors. It's clear that that was the point, but i can't help looking at it a different way and sort of wishing that all the special attention he grants her is for another reason. Then again, I'm an Auron and Rikku fan for Final Fantasy 10 so the older man dynamic, if done with the right sort of personality, is very cool!

[Shokou]

Personally I find that weird...but to each his own, I guess. I usually only like pairings of the same age.

[Nightheart]

They're immortal. It's like when you enter college, give it a decade or two and it won't matter anyway.

[Shokou]

Considering their "father and daughter" relationship...no time could make that not weird for me. Sorry. I respect your tastes, I swear.