The Twelve Kingdoms Forum

(wow - fragile_bloom - keep warm! -15 to -40 is way too cold! Are you sure you don't live in Tai? Maybe you have Gyousou hiding in your basement? )

I actually do believe Gyousou suspected Asen, but that he got the plot wrong. He sent Asen out of the kingdom during the winter cleanup, and when he went to Bun province he cut away part of Asen's army to use as his own. When I think about it, I have to wonder if Gyousou and Asen's similar "styles" of fighting and strategy could be Gyousou's undoing. He would assume how Asen worked and then design his strategy from that perspective. Which means that if Asen knew this (and he would) all he would have to do is change his strategy and Gyousou likely would not guess what is going on.

Gyousou seems "old school" while Youko is very "modernistic". I believe the rest of the twelve Kingdoms rulers are closer to "old school" as well. Gyousou is very arogant and self-confident, and his feelings get hurt very easily. For example the argument with the Nyosen before they went looking for suugu, and when Taiki did not at first choose him for emporer.

The Winter hunt though seems like an attempt to do something, but what exactly is debateable. The text of the story has Gyousou saying that they must route out all the people who utilized the past administration to fill their pockets, and return that wealth to the treasury so it can be used to restore the kingdom. He also went on to say that harsh penalties needed to dished out to prevent those wrong-doers from becoming bitter and rising up against him.

Risai and Kaei are left wondering what Gyousou's motive is for the hunt as so many people were being executed. Risai, when she learns of Asen's treason uses the analagy of two people in a pond - the surface is calm with a few ripples, but underneath there is a big fight going on.

Gyousou knew that Asen was up to something sinister and had many followers. He knew Asen was using magic to control their minds. He knew who was corrupt. He did not know Asen's full plot, how to reverse the mind control, or an alternative to killing Asen's supporters. In the end, he also ended up having to leave the palace. However, the question is whether he intended on coming back right away or not. I think Kaei speculated at one point that Gyousou left the palace because he wanted all the officers in question left in the palace for a final cleanup. But Risai said he wouldn't have left Taiki there if that was the case. So I have to wonder if Gyousou left the palace to force Asen to make his move and thus finally get the rebellion going so he could end it instead of sitting around waiting and guessing what the next step in Asen's plan was.

nightchaser wrote: So I have to wonder if Gyousou left the palace to force Asen to make his move and thus finally get the rebellion going so he could end it instead of sitting around waiting and guessing what the next step in Asen's plan was.

This puts Taiki in danger. If this was his plan, he should have at least told the Taiho about it. He would also be close by should something go wrong. This plan is too risky? If he did this, I would be disappointed he put Taiki at risk. I am not good at military plots, but from what you wrote, I suspect that even if Gyousou suspected Asen, he had no proof to execute him.

The shore at twilight ends off very well for En and Kei but we do not know what happened to Taiki and Risai next. Which book should I read to find out what happens to Taiki and how they found Gyousou?

I was reading about Queen Elizabeth I of England. She had many suiters, kings from other countries but she did not marry anyone of them because she did not want England to be infleunced by a foreign king. She also had many suiters amongst her officials but she did not marry any of them because that might cause jealousy. She was however rumoured to be very close to some of her senior officials. QE 1 never married. I wonder if Youko would end up the same. The "harem" suggestion although strange is a solution. Worse for Kei would be for Yo-o's fears to come true...someone seduced the Taiho. That would add color to the story!

Historically in our world, romantic relationships affect monarchy. The author managed to tease out the one dominant issue of "romance" which ended the rule of many great kings. Dynastic stories of kings and queens are colorful because of these relationships. The story of the 12 kingdoms although a historical record of kingdoms, is void of romance and yet colorful. I thought this is very artful.

nightchaser wrote:
Gyousou seems "old school" while Youko is very "modernistic". I believe the rest of the twelve Kingdoms rulers are closer to "old school" as well. Gyousou is very arogant and self-confident, and his feelings get hurt very easily. For example the argument with the Nyosen before they went looking for suugu, and when Taiki did not at first choose him for emporer.

Old school vs New school? Youko is modernistic in philosophy that I agree. However, even in a modern world government there is tight management. You cannot go in and out of the white house or meet the president as you wish. There are protocols. Armies cannot cross boundaries easily. Even military exercises and military aid disptribution require special permission from governments. I was reading about Queen Elizabeth I and it was written that she was very well dressed because she was the queen, people expect her to dress up like one. I thought Youko is too careless and carefree with her ways. This was one reason for the rebellion. Her people expect her to behave like a queen. Will she listen? She's supposedly democratic right?

Yoko could probbaly take her pointers from En-O... Keiki could help her alter her appearece (red hair was a bit unusual in the Kingdom) , like what the former Ko-Rin did.

fragile_bloom
It's quite interesting you mention queen Elizabeth, i read about her a lot in the past. About her dresses - i think you should just look at her portraits. Compairing her outfits i don't know why Youko complains at all!!! I'd like to know how Elizabeth was able to move.
But if i remember correctly she didn't just dressed because that was the royal code of behavior - she LOVED to furnish herself with all those robes, corsets and jewelry. Just like her father - Henry the 8-th, he was covered by jewels(check his portraits) and LOVED it. I think it goes with the family!
About her personal life - everything is in the air. She was never married that's true - she claimed she's married to England. But the real reason? Who knows...Some historians claim that she was afraid of her husband bad influence, some say she had some serious phisical shortcomings and was trying to hide it....whatever... She had favorites at court, like count of Essex (whom she executed afterwards) but there's no proof that she had any intimate relationships with anyone.
Maybe she was simply afraid of intimacy? Some hidden complexes?
So far officially she's considered a "virgin queen".
On the other side - there was strong and great female ruler you might take notice of. Catherine the Second - Russian empress, also known as Catherine the Great. She was a wise, famous and long-lived ruler. And she wasn't nearly as conservative as Elizabeth. Her love life is still the origin of inspiration for many historical novels. But i digress...

Look it's really interesting how the author avoids all those sexual questions instead focusing her work around no less interesting matters. So it's kinda weird to sit here and speculate about the romance in the world of twelve kingdoms, when it's only hinted here and there.
But it's unavoidably strange for me that one of the most powerfull driving sources in our world since the ancient times - lust and sex - completely missing here. You're right, it always played extremely important role at royal courts throughout the world.

Returning to "unroyal" Youko's behavior...I also think that there should be boundaries and official codes for the royal court. But...i don't know...
Look, in anime, at least where it stoped, there wasn't exactly such problem. Yes, Youko cancels the prostration by her first inaugural rescript. And i applauded her for that. But this action had a meaning, which Youko explained in that magnificent speech before her court.
Now, in this last novel...it appears that during the year the court etiquette gone down the tubes, like, totally.
Frankly speaking, i didn't saw it coming from the prevoius events. Cancelling prostration isn't the same as making everyone in the palace running around, calling the empress by her name and slapping her on the shoulder. Since when Youko also learned to make tea and serve it to her general? I don't know, maybe i missed something, or maybe i should've given some hints earlier about this, maybe something about this process. It simply came from nowhere for me.
Yes, she's "democratic" but there's a limit to everything. Being kind and generous and respectful to other people even if they are your sevants has it's own limits. Because then the other problems may start. If you're everybody's buddy instead of being the boss, some of your subordinates may not take you seriously. Besides, it's always higly problematic, making this switch between the friendly talk to giving an order.
Look, i worked in a big organization once. And i always wondered why all the people promoted to the senior positions suddenly changed their attitude from "friendly buddies" to "high-nosed bosses".
At first i considered this a simple snobism of someone who's got promoted and "forgot" his roots. But now, some years after, i understood why they changed their behavior. People around didn't take them seriously at first and took the orders from the former friend with "ok, sure, buddy, whatever you say" attitude. That's the human nature. So they had to build this distance to be taken seriously and to acomplish the tasks. Sad, but true.
She really seems a bit too carefree. But it may be explained by her unexperience and young age, of course. It took me years to understand that you can't be buddy-friends with you subordinates. It extremely rarely works. You may stay friends with them only within certain boundaries, when they are smart enough to understand that no matter what - you're the boss and you give orders.
Souryou with all his easy-going attitude also restricted the circle of his buddy-friends - only 3 or 4 of them were allowed to treat him like this. All the other officials were not given such luxury. Besides he was more experienced than Youko and he already knew how to pull the strings behind his officials back.
Youko wears her heart on her sleeve and can be hurt easily. I don't think she should return to those drugging behind hems and kowtowing, but she has to find the right balance between not offending the older but capable officials and modernisation of her court, finding and introducing more supporters of her reign.
Learning how to stay friendly and accessible to her subordinates but also never letting them forget who's the boss here.
I think she starts to understand things towards the end of the novel if i understand correctly from your discription.

Tahki

Keiki could help her alter her appearece (red hair was a bit unusual in the Kingdom) , like what the former Ko-Rin did.

Ehr...What do you mean? Youko's hair was the problem only when she was pursuied as she's easily recognisable. So she had to dye it. In the world of twelve kingdoms any hair and eye color are possible. And what's Kourin has to do with this? I don't understand what's Youko's hair color has to do with her problems at the court at all?

Another reason Queen Elizabeth didn't get married: her husband would be a king. And "King" outranks "Queen". Victoria and the current Queen got around this by making their husbands "Prince". Elizabeth's court was so full of political intrigue that this option probably wasn't even practical even if she did ever consider it. "But she was happy"

You are right about Youko being way too informal. But then the people we see her with are her closest advisors and friends. It does stand to reason that they would treat her different than everyone else, but we don't actually get to see if that is true. Although, the short-lived rebellion might be an indication that the informality is everywhere and not just localized among her friends.

I need to clarify what I meant by old-school and new-school rulers. The old-school are rulers similar to the old emporers of China. They believed in absolute loyalty and absolute and quick punishment (often death). They considered themselves the messenger of the Gods to the people on earth and insisted they be treated as such. New-school has some of the elements of old-school (building off the past is normal) but is more like the rulers of today (in this case Japan since that is Youko's experience). So, lenient punishment, no "Godhood" for the Queen, and everyone is equal.

I'm not saying that everyone fits completely into one of those two molds (they don't). But - when we see how Gyousou acts during the Winter Hunt it fits the king who is "old school" and when we see Youko's servants calling her by her first name she fits more in the "new school". Now En-ou fits partially in both, but leans more to "old school".

Okay - back to Taiki

I don't believe Gyousou ever thought Taiki was in danger because he has a totetsu and Gyousou was there when Taiki tamed it. He seemed to be the only person who was not thinking of Taiki as a cute little kid. He had told Taiki not to send his shirei out, no matter what happened. Yet in the end Taiki disobeyed him because he was so worried. I do not believe Gyousou ever dreamed Taiki would do that. So "if" (and this is speculation of course) Gyousou left the palace with part of Asen's army and left Asen behind to get Asen to make his move Gyousou would have though that Taiki would use his powers and Totetsu to protect himself. If nothing else, turn into a kirin and leave. Now the big hole in this argument is why not tell Taiki at least. Possibly because little kids have problems keeping secrets and Taiki wore his heart on his sleeve. He would have avoided Asen and Asen would have become suspicious about Taiki's changed behaviour.

Well, it turns out that if Taiki had kept his shirei with him Asen would not have done anything anyway. Although, he may have had another plan. Anyway, Taiki did send his shirei away and Asen made his move, and Gyousou could do nothing about it as he also disappeared. So if this was his plan, it was a bad one.

Elizabeth's court was so full of political intrigue that this option probably wasn't even practical even if she did ever consider it. "But she was happy"

I wonder...Remember, when Scottish queen Maria Stuart gave birth to her son (future James 1) and Elizabeth, upon hearing the news, burst into isterics in her bedchamber? I'm not sure she was that happy afterall. Yes, her life had a meaning, but what it was like for her on the personal level?
OK, let's leave queen Elizabeth in peace.

Back to Twelve Kingdoms...

Although, the short-lived rebellion might be an indication that the informality is everywhere and not just localized among her friends.

It's not just the rebellion that i actually even didn't read about it yet (Ver-r-ry sad smile). It's the whole atmosphere in the palace. This is what you gather from the Shokei-Risai conversation. As Risai mentions that everyone seems to be very easy-going towards Kei-ou and Shokei laughs that the atmosphere in the palace entirely turned to be so, and calls Youko's behavior as "idiotic"...There's a distinct feeling that Youko's friendliness and openess backfired and not in a good way. Not everyone is ready for democracy, and frankly speaking, in any government should be a limit to democracy or otherwise things can easily turn into the chaos.
Discipline and strict hierarchy should be kept in order.
She's the empress. Not the girl next door. She has enourmous responsibilties, but most of the people in any world won't treat her seriously if she'll serve them tea one minute and the next will give them an important order.
The number of her friends is restricted so far in the palace, and how many friends (real friends, i mean) a person can aquire? She can't be everyone's friend, can she? She can't please everyone.
So, she has to restrict her friendly behavior only towards those who can understand it and interpret it the right way.
Remember that dialog between Youko and Kantai? He doesn't seem very respectful, does he? Yet we know that he's her friend, he likes and apparently respects her and he'll never betray her. But their conversation can be overheard by everyone - what impression would it leave on the other officials who don't understand their friendship and Youko's mentality? They'd consider her weak and undeserving as she doesn't convey in the slightest any authority.
Do you wonder at all that rebellion occurs?
She has to learn to achieve this delicate balance of

Learning how to stay friendly and accessible to her subordinates but also never letting them forget who's the boss here.

It's difficult but possible. And she has to learn to do it for her own sake.
As i said, i hope she learned the lesson.

I don't believe Gyousou ever thought Taiki was in danger because he has a totetsu and Gyousou was there when Taiki tamed it.

I think that Gyousou didn't know the exact nature of danger when he left Taiki in the palace.
That's one of the reasons i believe Tai-ou wasn't really aware of what was going on under his own nose. As a wise man (and i always said Gyousou is very wise and capable leader) he probably did took into the account that Taiki might be in some kind of danger on his own, simply because you can't check everyone and everything in the huge palace. But i still believe he didn't know all the mightiness of danger, the level of evilness he's cofronting and i'm not sure he knew it's coming from his closest aide and companion. Why? Because i think if he ever suspected Asen - he would never leave him in charge in the palace, even with decreased army, and moreover - HE WOULD NEVER LEAVE TAIKI BESIDE HIM. He might take part of the Asen's army simply because he thought he needed it to crash the rebellion, believing that the real danger awaits in the province.
Again, many facts are missing so that the author may suddenly come up with new and untold facts in the next book that will turn the situation in absolutely different direction.
Yours guess right now is as good as mine.

He had told Taiki not to send his shirei out, no matter what happened. Yet in the end Taiki disobeyed him because he was so worried.

Yes, that's in the case there would be some traitor in the palace he thought that Taiki is safe with his shirei.
But remember - Taiki didn't disobey his master's order simply because he was little kid who didn't understand the importance of it.
It was all the part of Asen plan, a carefully planned plan.
Wasn't Taiki "accidentially" told of danger Gyousou was in in the province, a very grave danger, by one of the subordinate? Or my memory doesn't serve me well? They stirred such a worry in little Taiho that he was so desperate to save his king that he broke the promice given to Gyousou.
Asen knew what he was doing. He scared the unexperienced kid, he knew he'd send his shirei to protect Gyousou and struck him exactly at the right moment.
Nothing accidential here, if you ask me.

Thanks Nightchaser for clarifying new school and old school.

I think Youko is still in the process of finding her unique governing style identity. Whether she is old or new school remains to be seen. I would think she is new school, somewhat similar to En-Ou.

From the animated series, Youko was searching for an identity. In Shore at Twilight, this search for identity continued. Her famous “I am Youko Nakajima. I will always be the same person, I’m not different….” Rhetoric was repeated in her conversation with Taiki although in her thoughts (unspoken) she reflected about Hourai and how it seemed so distant and not related to her. She thought it was scary to forget one’s parent’s, friends and family. It is clearly written in the book that Youko was suddenly at a lost for conversation with Taiki although she thought she had a lot to say. Her attempts to strike a conversation with Taiki about Hourai were awkward. Although she said she was no different from the girl from Horai, her conversation with Taiki focused on politics. What disturbs me about Youko is her refusal to accept the changes in herself. Enki clearly told her in Shore at Twilight she can never revert to her old self. If you recall, Enki had met her in Hourai. I often thought a good way to teach Youko a lesson is to send her back to Hourai with no way for her to return to Kei. Alternatively, she can trace her natural parents in Kei and establish an identity.

Beranda:

It is very possible (just speculating) that Princess Shokei was shocked at the lack of formality in Kimpa Palace. However, I think she is very protective of Youko and her satire might have been directed at Risai. If you read the book, she was like a personal secretary to Youko. She read and drafted letters for Youko. Youko wasn’t able to read and write properly in the language. I don't know how to interpret Shokei's behaviour. I think it is open for speculation, more than once, it appeared as if she despised Youko but this could be read in another way that she was just protective of Youko. Watching an animation would help.

I am actually not surprised the rebellion broke out. Youko herself and other Kei officials close to her were also not surprised. They knew the government was still unstable.

It is true what nightchaser said that we only get to read about how Youko worked with her closest officers. We do not know how widespread this informality was. In fact, I only vividly recall Shokei calling Youko by name. All other officials like Keiki, Kouken etc addressed her formally. In fact, I think Keiki's formality balances Youko. Throughout the Shore at Twilight, we know she worked very well with her immediate officials. I also felt that Youko loves Keiki. Strange, I cannot say why but this is just a feeling I get when I read the book.

fragile_bloom

If you read the book, she was like a personal secretary to Youko.

Let me repeat once again - i read only the translated part on Otyaku site. So, i'm quite stuck since august. I mentioned it several times already.

She read and drafted letters for Youko.

Let me quote, please:

As if to take Suzu's post, Syoukei sat down beside Risai's pillow.
" I apologize for the unsighty fuss we have made. I am a jyoushi (女史, a post to record matters happened within the palace), and my name is Syoukei."

It doesn't sound even close to"personal secretary", isn't it? Or does Shokei work extra-hours to do her empress friend a favour?
Or she was promoted during the novel?
Besides, i'm quite sick of hearing how Youko learns and learns and learns for 2 years already and still doesn't know the most basic things and can't even read a letter properly. Not to mention the mysterious memory loss i talked about in the earlier posts. She was a smart student in Japan, and now she suddenly lost her learning abilities?
For the third novel in row - it becomes tiresome.

It is very possible (just speculating) that Princess Shokei was shocked at the lack of formality in Kimpa Palace.

Undoubtfully understandable. Have no problems here.
One question though.
I can't for my life figure out how Youko's palace name is pronounced.
I've met multitude of variants:
Kinpa, Kimpa, Kinba, Kimba (this one Eugene Woodbury uses)
The meaning is "The palace of golden waves".
But what's the right English(and Russian for that matter) spelling?
Even in the same translation Otyaku site uses different versions.

Watching an animation would help.

Yep, definitely. Except there's no animation on this part. And won't be for sure as long as the story stays incomplete.
Gr-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r (very sad smile)

Rhetoric was repeated in her conversation with Taiki although in her thoughts (unspoken) she reflected about Hourai and how it seemed so distant and not related to her. She thought it was scary to forget one’s parent’s, friends and family. It is clearly written in the book that Youko was suddenly at a lost for conversation with Taiki although she thought she had a lot to say.

I can't comment on something i personally haven't read. But she already mentions the same thought at the beginning (which i read). It sounded very out of place for me. In the light of Shadow of the Moon, that is.
I repeat myself, she suffered such hardships and aversities to get back home and it hurt her so much that she couldn't go home after all...In anime you feel it even stronger. Her sacrifice for the sake of her kingdom, her taking the huge weight of responsibility on her shoulders...
How her memories and this grave pain dissipated in just 2 years?
And in the same novel she understands very clearly that she's a changed person, she can't go back pretending nothing happened. Actually she says to Rakushun that she wants to go back to change her life and built new relationships. So, she now forgot all this as well? And her parents and family?

What disturbs me about Youko is her refusal to accept the changes in herself.

Read the above. It doesn't sit well with Youko from the previous novels who not only understands very well that she's not her old self, but is willing to change and grow. This is the main theme of the books and anime. (Suzu and Shoukei as well).

If you recall, Enki had met her in Hourai.

This is only in the anime, it's not in the book. But that doesn't matter, as Enki saw her exactly for 10 seconds accidentially and couldn't even begin to know her, so he can't claim to know her old self. In the book - it's even more unexplainable.

I am actually not surprised the rebellion broke out.

Neither do i. Glad to know she wasn't either.

We do not know how widespread this informality was.

From the translated part i read - let me tell you, it was VERY WIDESPREAD!

" Everyone in Kimpa Palace... They seem very easy-going towards Kei-ou."
" It seems the atmosphere has turned entirely so. The lack of dignified manners is to the extent of being shocking, I guess?”

Rhetoric was repeated in her conversation with Taiki although in her thoughts (unspoken) she reflected about Hourai and how it seemed so distant and not related to her. She thought it was scary to forget one’s parent’s, friends and family. It is clearly written in the book that Youko was suddenly at a lost for conversation with Taiki although she thought she had a lot to say.
Beranda wrote: I can't comment on something i personally haven't read. But she already mentions the same thought at the beginning (which i read). It sounded very out of place for me. In the light of Shadow of the Moon, that is.
I repeat myself, she suffered such hardships and aversities to get back home and it hurt her so much that she couldn't go home after all...In anime you feel it even stronger. Her sacrifice for the sake of her kingdom, her taking the huge weight of responsibility on her shoulders...
How her memories and this grave pain dissipated in just 2 years?
And in the same novel she understands very clearly that she's a changed person, she can't go back pretending nothing happened. Actually she says to Rakushun that she wants to go back to change her life and built new relationships. So, she now forgot all this as well? And her parents and family?

I am not a fan of Youko's but I can understand her feelings in this conversation with Taiki. I am an immigrant in a land far from where I was born and raised. Life here is fanatically different and yes, it is scary and cold. I look back at my country and wonder why it seems so far away and unreal. I want to go home but cannot! It is scary to forget one's own country, family and friends, people whom I thought I'd never forget now seem so far away and unreal! I want to go home. Yet, I cannot. Can I? This is the reflections from an immigrant. Youko can never go home. For me, I can go home but I'm not sure if I'd fit home. I don't even know where home is anymore! At least Youko has Keiki.

beranda wrote:Besides, i'm quite sick of hearing how Youko learns and learns and learns for 2 years already and still doesn't know the most basic things and can't even read a letter properly. Not to mention the mysterious memory loss i talked about in the earlier posts. She was a smart student in Japan, and now she suddenly lost her learning abilities?
For the third novel in row - it becomes tiresome.

If her Sen'nin ability to speak the language doesn't include being able to read and write it, then she would have to learn those from scratch. Even young children take many years to learn how to read and write, and language accuisition is much harder in adulthood, so I'd assume literacy is as well. No matter how good of a student she is, she isn't going to be able to read and write well enough for an Empress's official correspondence for at least a decade or so. After only a couple of years, she'd be doing great if she can read and write as well as a first grade kid. (And that doesn't even factor in the fact that she has a lot of other duties competing for her time, and even during her limited studying time, has a lot of other subjects to cover besides reading and writing.)

[quote="Niwashi2"][quote="beranda"]Besides, i'm quite sick of hearing how Youko learns and learns and learns for 2 years already and still doesn't know the most basic things and can't even read a letter properly. Not to mention the mysterious memory loss i talked about in the earlier posts. She was a smart student in Japan, and now she suddenly lost her learning abilities?
For the third novel in row - it becomes tiresome.[/quote]
If her Sen'nin ability to speak the language doesn't include being able to read and write it, then she would have to learn those from scratch. Even young children take many years to learn how to read and write, and language accuisition is much harder in adulthood, so I'd assume literacy is as well. No matter how good of a student she is, she isn't going to be able to read and write well enough for an Empress's official correspondence for at least a decade or so. After only a couple of years, she'd be doing great if she can read and write as well as a first grade kid. (And that doesn't even factor in the fact that she has a lot of other duties competing for her time, and even during her limited studying time, has a lot of other subjects to cover besides reading and writing.)[/quote]

A friend from China told me it can take up to 6 years to become literate enough in Chinese to read a newspaper. Learning the read and write the Chinese characters is difficult, and Youko has less time to study than a child would. I could easily see it taking her two or three times as long to learn how to read and write. But then, she is a senin and as long as she keeps her head she will have time to learn.

Niwashi2
nightchaser
Yes, i know that while Youko can speak and understand the language as sen-in, she is illiterate.
And yes, i heard that chinese and japanese are extremely hard to read.But she doesn't start from the scratch either, unlike me for instance. So, comparing her to the first grade child isn't quite right here.
Though i can understand that she has troubles with reading and writing and will have them for at least several years.
But hearing how she has the same troubles in reading and writing over and over and over again, from novel to novel...
It becomes tiresome for me.
I've already got this in the first novel. Why to repeat it at least 3 times in the part i read (which constitutes for only 3 chapters). Those who follow the story from the beginning are aware of this unfortunate fact.
And those who just started reading - well, folks, i propose that you start from the right place. Because you won't understand a thing anyway.

Besides, i didn't talk about her illteracy only! Really! I mentioned earlier a lot of things she learned in the previous novels and "forget" them in this one. Not to mention many basic things she was supposed to learn as a ruler during the 2 years of reign especially under her new Taishi guidance.
I even gave quotes from the novels to support my point of view.
Whatever...Just leave it there...
fragile_bloom
You know, i'm an immigrant as well. And the funny thing is that i left my country exactly at Youko's age - 16.
And yes, i left my past behind. And yes, the transition was painful. Though, unlike you, i don't feel a pain now. Yes, i miss my life there, my memories. There was a lot of sh@#$t there, but there were a lot of things i continue to cherish. And here, in the new place there's a lot of sh@#4t as well. And no, the immigrant's life, especially at the beginning isn't showered with roses. Well, you know it, i don't have to tell you.
And i still wouldn't want to go back. I moved on and i'm not the same person anymore. And i finally understood, several years ago, that what i miss (and i'll talk about MY experience only) is my childhood, my memories, the good things i had there no matter what. Because this is what stays with the person forever. You forget the bad and cherish the good you had. I remember my life there, however imperfect it was. It didn't disappear for me even now, after many years.
Yes, i moved with my family, so i won't claim this is exactly the same experience Youko has.
But! There is one thing i can't understand. How can you forget?! How can you forget 16 years of your life in 2 years, how can it become just "some distant" dream? Even if you can't go back? Even if you don't want to go back? How can you stop loving your parents, no matter how wrong they were? Maybe i was raised in some mutant family, but i can't ever imagine how my parents, whatever happens to them will suddenly turn into something "just distant dreamy" for me. Didn't she care for them at all?! One little tiny bit?!
I simply feel that

It didn't mean she missed it dearly, but when she remembered she could never return, she felt a stabbing sense of loss.

is... weird, for the lack of better word, for me.
Ah, forget it...Just my personal rumblings here...

beranda wrote:I can't for my life figure out how Youko's palace name is pronounced.
I've met multitude of variants:
Kinpa, Kimpa, Kinba, Kimba (this one Eugene Woodbury uses)
The meaning is "The palace of golden waves".
But what's the right English(and Russian for that matter) spelling?
Even in the same translation Otyaku site uses different versions.

金波宮 is furi-ed as きんぱきゅう (Kinpa Kyuu). Often an 'n' before a bilabial consonant (b/p) will be pronounced as an 'm', like in 乾杯 (kampai) or 三分 (sampun). This sound change isn't reflected in the Japanese writing system because there is no way to write the 'm' final consonant. If you were romanizing it directly from how it's written in japanese, it would be Kinpa, but if you wanted to reflect how it might actually be pronounced in japanese, you could write Kimpa. But then, Youko's not in Japan anymore, is she?

Ret
Wow! Thank you very much for such an informative reply.
So, if i understand correctly, KINPA is the most "appropriate" reading, but all the rest can be accepted as well, because of bilabial consonants (b/p) and (m/n). So everyone pronounces them (and spells in English) according to his own interpretation and understanding...

Youko is starting from scratch with reading and writing. From what the teacher they met in En said, the twelve kingdoms are using Chinese characters to write with. She may have recognized the characters but she doesn't know the twelve kingdoms words for those characters.

Different people feel differently about immigration. When I was a kid my family was friends with a guy in his 70's that came from Holland when he was a little kid. One day his sister invited everyone to his house to view vacation pictures she had taken of her recent trip to Holland. She missed her life there and had lots of pictures and stories. His attitude: "I didn't leave anything behind." They were close to the same age, had the same experiences, but had completely different opinions about Holland in the 1920's and 30's. Youko is very happy where she is, but feels reminiscent about her past. I have to wonder how she would feel if she took a vacation to Tokyo... Well, that won't happen (at least for a while)

Hello, been away for a while...


Let me see, i wish to give my small opinion on some of the issues that had been discussed. In the case of Youko informality, i dont think she will have much problems with the court and minister for the fact that she scare them shi*&^&% after the rebellion, thats one. Second, her most trusted advisor controls the courts (koukan) her other most trusted advisor control the army (Kantai) and she herself demostrated to the "old guard" that she is not one to be underestimated ( ask the former chosai about it).
About Shokei, she do respect youko, the comments about her to risai was, i think, for risai's benefit, not to insult youko. In fact, it was shokei during the rebellion that show the most confidence in youko and helped her figure out what the ministers were doing. Youko is a little naive, thats for sure, but she is not useless, in my opinion the author is doing a good job in showing her character's transition but also never forgetting that youko is youko, that sometimes she will forget what she had learned and use her instincts.
i will try to keep up with the posts and post a more intelligent reply LOL but thats my 2 cents for now
Thank you

The rebellion we are refering to is the one that happened towards the end of Shore at Twilight when Taiki, Risai and Youko were taken hostage. It was not the rebellion in the animation. More than in one occassion, Shoukei in the Shore at Twilight seemed to mock Youko's ignorance but the language could also be interpreted as Shoukei protecting her boss.

The rebellion was a minor one. The plot and reasons for rebellion were easy to understand but I feel that the text is not clear in many ways. Youko and Keiki's reaction during and after the rebellion is very puzzling to me.

I know Ret is a language expert, you must have read about the rebellion. Can you spill some beans please please please? Whose Shirei do you think protected Youko?

My favorite character was and still is En-Ou, he is firm and gentle. Easy going and tight fisted. Flirts but En had no harem. I like his leadership style and ability. I would feel a sense of security working for such a boss.

beranda wrote:Ret
Wow! Thank you very much for such an informative reply.
So, if i understand correctly, KINPA is the most "appropriate" reading, but all the rest can be accepted as well, because of bilabial consonants (b/p) and (m/n). So everyone pronounces them (and spells in English) according to his own interpretation and understanding...

well, it's probably not kinba or kimba. there's definitely a distinction between 'b' and 'p' in japanese.

retrooo

You know, I'm beginning to think that Asen does not have Gyousou hidden away somewhere. That Gyousou escaped from Asen treachery. After the Meishoku in the palace a blue bird was received from Gyousou's camp, but no one read it until later (no one but Asen that is). Asen had failed to kill Taiki and was therefore already in a bad mood. The blue bird's message said that Gyousou and two other generals were missing and no one could find them. That would mean there was still the possibility they were alive. Asen went to where the birds were kept and the one that announces the death of the king was still alive (meaning the king was alive). The book describes Asen slashing at it (which is a pretty violent image) but his sword would pass through the bird with no effect. Obviously he was pretty mad at this point. If he wanted the bird dead, and he had Gyousou in his custody all he would have to do is kill Gyousou. Also, Risai describes how Asen is destroying anything and everything to do with Gryousou - the lands he was give by the previous king, the town he grew up in. It just doesn't sound to me like Asen has Gyousou captive.
As for where Gyousou and the two other generals could be, who knows? I also remember reading somewhere that high ranked senin could also invoke shoku - maybe they escaped to Horai or China? Or are running about the country trying to put another army together (with the same luck as Risai). It's all speculation, anyway.

Yes, Asen would just kill Gyousou if he had him in captivity because what he did to Taiki was brutal. I thought there was a book written as a continuation of Shore at Twilight to explain what happened to Tai-Ou. I thought I read that somewhere. There is another section of Shore at Twilight which shed some light concerning the disappearance of Gyousou. Han-Ou visited Risai with two objects which he thought could help locate Gyousou and Taiki. The second item was a magic mirror (i think it is a mirror) which played a part in locating Taiki in Hourai. The mirror was used by the kirins during the search. The second object was a jade ?? (not sure what it was, cannot recall, did not pay attention to this detail). However, it was Han-Ou's gift to Tai-Ou at Tai-Ou's coronation. The irony was that it somehow found its way back to Han and into the hands of Han-Ou. I cannot recall exactly what was discussed between Han-Ou and Risai because I am not interested in military schemes etc.... My Chinese language is not good enough for me to undestand "Risai-Han Ou" conversation. However, Risai was full of hope when she summarised what she found out (from the conversation with Han-Ou) about the last place Gyousou visited before he disappeard. That piece of information would give her a lead as to where to start searching for Gyousou.......now that I recall (correct me if I'm wrong), the jade object indicated that Gyousou was wounded or something/someone struck him from behind. It was a brutal stab/slashing. Someone who has read the book should verify this. Its found in the conversation between Risai and Han-Ou.

However, my language ability did enable me to understand the reasons and plot of the rebellion, I just cannot determine whose Shirei protected Youko and I'm puzzled by Youko and Keiki's reaction to the rebellion. I also did not understand fully Koukan's conversation with Youko the day after the rebellion. Koukan's language was too sophisticated. It is not easy to read and write Chinese. I studied simplified Chinese as a second language in school for 12 years and I have to cut and paste almost every word into the online dictionary. However, I can understand most of the sentences very quickly after seeing the "han yu pin yin" and meaning of the word. Unlike French, I do not need to translate from Chinese to English when I read in Chinese, I understand the Chinese as it is written. When reading in French, I still need to translate the French into English or Chinese.

You mentioned 6 years to learn how to read the Chinese news paper.....not possible according to my experience.

I can understand written Chinese pretty alright, so if anyone wants I can try to provide a translation.

Thanks Yuene. This is the scene when the rebellion ended. If Yuene or someone else can help translate this, that would be great!

I am confused who said what. Eg I have to assume the sentence marked *** is said by Keiki, but is it possible it was Koukan or Enki? I think it should be Keiki talking. By the way, I also don't fully understand that sentence.

尖叫声。拿剑指着李斋的男人先向阳子的方向进攻。在到达之前就被野兽的前肢刺穿了胸膛。那锐利的爪子染满了血红色，在它被拔出来的同时，男人倒地不起。阳子回过神来，她想着应该是有谁在背后救了她一命，可是回过头来，谁也没在那里。只看到在远远的地方，泰麒像被冻住似的，呆呆站着。

“小心自己，注意抵抗！”

阳子回过头来，看到脸色苍白的景麒飞奔过来。在那间客厅里有好几个人倒在地上，同时还有一些人惨叫着带着血迹逃走了。

“这件事出现的还真是时候啊……”阳子定定地坐在那里苦笑着。

“延台辅不是留下使令给你了吗？为什么不抵抗呢？”

“……因为当时手边儿什么也没有。”

“即使没有剑，也请您不要连任何抵抗都不做而放任他们胡来！” ***

“嗯……啊，无论如何谢谢你们相救。”

阳子这么说着，景麒咬牙切齿的看了看阳子，赌气似的把头扭向了一边。

“只要一不在主上的身边，就总是会出问题，真麻烦！”

“对不起……”阳子笑着，又看了看李斋和泰麒。

[quote="fragile_bloom"]You mentioned 6 years to learn how to read the Chinese news paper.....not possible according to my experience.[/quote]

No - to learn to read well enough to understand a newspaper. And my friend that told me that was talking about people who already speak Chinese - but are learning to read it. But - yeah - I have had 3 years of German. I can read and understand people talking to me but I cannot form sentences or respond in German. Just not enough experience. But it can be amusing - my officemate would slip into German to exclude me from conversation - but I understood every word anyway

While I don't believe at this point that Asen ever had Gyousou in his custody, I have to wonder why Risai and Kaei never heard any rumours about him. Of course, Tai is a huge kingdom (the size of China) with no technology so it is possible that hiding would be easier than it sounds to us in the computer/information age. Poor Gyousou though - not knowing where Taiki is and if he is dead or not. If Gyousou was badly injured though, it would explain why he didn't return for Taiki. He would need time to recover. Also, since Sougen reported Gyousou missing does that mean Sougen was on Asen's side? Did Gyousou and the other two Generals realize what Sougen was and just flat out walk away from the army during the battle to escape (carrying a wounded Gyousou)? Sougen would have kept the army with him, and Asen ordered him to return to the palace, so the king and the other two Generals would have had no or few soldiers along with them when they disappeared.

Is it possible that Gyousou lost his memories after being attacked? Thats why he never came back...i don't think he could just be sitting around waiting for taiki to find him...he doesn't seem like that sort of person(take charge). Maybe the same thing happened to him that happened to Taiki(lost memory)