Page 4 of 5

Gyousou

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 5:56 pm
by fragile_bloom
Yes, I checked. They did have evidence Gyousou was slashed from the back. The item Han -Ou brought with him was a waist belt made of gold and possibly embeded with jade. It was his gift to Gyousou at his coronotion. The workmanship and design on the belt was so fine, it could only be carved by the best artisan in Han. It had slash marks on it indicating Gyousou had been stabbed from behind. The belt was found by a Han official in charge of precious stone imports from Tai. Han imported jade from Tai. Han artisans carved the jade pieces into precious ornaments. The official from Han recognised the workmanship on the belt and passed the item to Han Ou who recognised it. Han-Ou earlier thought Tai-Ou was dead. When he found out from En-Ou that Tai-Ou was not dead, he quickly headed for Kei to meet Risai.

I think Tai-Ou trusted the wrong people. Sougen might have stabbed him. Someone close to him whom he trusted obviously did that. I don't think he suspected Asen. I am curious how his waist belt suddenly appeared in Han. Could Gyousou have purposely placed the belt amongst exports so that it gets shipped to Han? This will give oursiders a clue about his condition and whereabouts. They knew which Tai province the belt was exported from. Risai was excited because at least she knew where to start the search.

Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 11:46 pm
by nightchaser
That's good info Fragile_Bloom. The belt could have gotten to Han many ways. The obvious to me is whoever was treating his injuries discarded it to get to the wounds and never picked it up again, then someone else picked it up and pawned it for cash or food. But maybe Gyousou sold it knowing it would eventually be a clue about his where-abouts, and/or for food for his followers (assuming he had some with him).

Yeah - Tai-ou trusted the wrong people. I do think he suspected Asen, but that he underestimated the plot. Of course, Gyousou could also be pretty arrogant, too. Underestimating Asen's plot, and then overestimating his own ability to prevent the coming coup.

fragile_bloom!

Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 4:11 am
by yuene
Translated! I've added a bit and subtracted some parts to make the whole thing flow a little more. I'm not sure who was under attack at that point, whether it was Risai, Youko and Taiki or just Youko since I don't have the first portion, so I assumed it was just her for now.

Yes, the portion marked *** is spoken by Keiki. I think he was pretty much annoyed, but I suspect it was more out of worry for her then anything else.

As follows:

A scream. The man, who’d been pointing his sword at Risai until now, turned and lunged at Youko, but before he could reach her, the claws of a youma did, tearing viciously into his armour and drawing fresh blood. The man collapsed, dead. Someone, Youko thought as she recovered from the shock, someone's come to our rescue. She turned to the direction that the youma had rushed in from, but no one was there. Only Taiki, standing at a distance, was there, frozen to the spot as though someone had glued him there.

“Look out, they’re going to counterattack!”

Youko turned to see Keiki, pale with anger, rushing to her side. Their assailants, seeing the situation take a turn for the worse, decided to escape, leaving their dead and trails of their blood.

She sank into a nearby seat. “You certainly picked the right time to show up.” A wry smile, still tinged with the shock of the events that just occurred, flashed across her face.

“En-Taiho left you some shirei, didn’t he? Then why didn’t you use them? Why didn’t you offer any resistance?”

“……because I didn’t have my sword with me.”

“Even so,” Keiki checked himself. “Please, at least put up a fight. Or were you thinking of just standing there and letting them run you through?”

“…at any rate, thank you for saving me.”

At this, Keiki gritted his teeth. With obvious displeasure, he looked away. “The moment I’m not with her, something’s bound to happen.”

“I’m…sorry……” A tentative, slightly nervous smile crossed Youko’s face. She turned towards Risai and Taiki.

Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 2:51 am
by fragile_bloom
Thanks Yuene, :D I did not want to translate because I want to see how others interprete the text. Not very easy to interprete and translate because different people may have different interpretations reading the same text and I'm not exactly competent with the language. I think your language is much better than mine. I'm a slow learner.

I am assuming Enki's Shirei saved Youko because if it were Keiki's Shirei, Youko would have recognised it by name. The Shirei's name isn't mentioned. I feel that the author should have mentioned the name. Youko's behaviour is very strange, not consistent with the daring strong warrior in other episodes. I was puzzled why she did not seem to know En Taiho had lent her his Shirei. Did she forget? Or, Enki did not inform her? Why was Keiki the first to arrive at the scene if it was Enki's shirei who saved Youko? Don't you think Enki would be the first to know something wasn't right? Youko's reply to Keiki was very strange, she said she did not have her sword with her. In fact all throughout the rebellion, she kept thinking of her sword! Helplessly, she indulged in conversation with the rebels. This is most unlike the strong and resourceful Youko from the other series. Didn't one of Keiki's shirei "live" inside Youko? Why was she so weak here? If Keiki was not present at the rebellion, how did he know she indulged in conversation with the rebels instead of taking the offensive?

One obvious thing is certain, the security at Kimpa Palace was laxed. Keiki was shocked but he could also be reacting from guilt. Only certain people could enter the inner courts where the queen resided. One of the guys who fought along Youko in the Wa uprising was in charge of Youko's security in the inner courts. I cannot recall his name because the Chinese names in the book is different from the English translation but he was the big fellow with a younger brother and they were close to Suzu. It was still unacceptable Keiki did not assign his shireis to protect Youko. Perhaps, he knew Enki had done that? As to why Youko laughed towards the end after Keiki's statement, you need to read the whole book, it's got something to do with what Enki said earlier to Youko. Perhaps, it was for that reason Enki sent Shireis to protect Youko. Whatever it was, Keiki's "fear" of being close to women put the queen in danger. Keiki and the chief of security (cannot remember his name) were careless. Sigh....I still find Youko reactions inconsistent here.

:lol: Merry Christmas.

Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 12:27 pm
by yuene
Actually, the only reason that I can read Chinese is that I learnt it for 12 years in school. I guess it's kind of fortunate that my writing and reading ability is a lot better than my spoken ability :lol:

From what I understood, I thought that the youma that came to her rescue was Keiki's shirei; otherwise why would she thank him for coming to her rescue? But yes, I agree that Youko is acting rather strange, in comparison to her character at the end of the series. However, I must point out that the original reason that she did not defend herself, when translated from the Chinese, reads: "I did not have anything at hand to defend myself with", which might mean more than her sword; it could mean that she had looked around and there were no weapons for her to use. Come to think of it, this sentence sounds a lot better than the one that I first used in the translation.

I'm not sure if she indulged in conversation with the rebels, I don't have the rest of the book to take a look at, so I need to see the passage before that before I respond.

Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 12:37 pm
by nightchaser
Thanks for the translation Yuene. There is an online Chinese version at http://www.fuyun.cn/book/8551/html/contents.html if you are interested :-)

This does seem a little odd for Youko. But then she is a very hands on person. She seems to prefer to do the fighting herself instead of using other methods. But still... it would be quite a shock to be attacked in your own rooms in a secure palace. I also wonder why Taiki didn't call the shirei either. If Enki left them there it would be ostensibly to protect Taiki. But instead Taiki was terrified and glued to the spot. Of course, he is still recovering and feeling very ill, but I am surprised he didn't do anything either.

Poor Keiki. He isn't going to die of Shitsudou, he's going to die from ulcers taking care of Youko :shock:

Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 6:41 am
by beranda
yuene
Thank you so much for your translation.
But as for the content...
Folks, i'm sorry, but i'm flabbergusted...amazed...bewildered...i don't find the right word...
I think you all already expressed my feelings - What the hell is wrong with Youko?!!!!! It's not just from anime - the previous novels pictured her as a person who doesn't think twice on returning the fight...
She didn't resist 'cos she didn't have a sword? She waited for Keiki to save her? :shock:
nightchaser
Poor Keiki. He isn't going to die of Shitsudou, he's going to die from ulcers taking care of Youko
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Thank you for the laugh! I really needed it after what i read above... :wink:

Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 2:38 pm
by fragile_bloom
I still don't understand why Youko did not seem to know Enki had lent her Shireis. Perhaps Enki did not tell her. Youko had always used Shireis to protect herself. Her own strength came from the Shirei which lived in her. When I read the text the first time, I thought Enki's shirei saved her but reading it again, I thought it could be Keiki's shirei. Since Yuene also thinks Keiki's shirei saved Youko, it seems that is possible although it is possible that Enki's shirei saved Youko.

I find it not logical that such a thing could happen in a secured palace. This is not some major rebellion led by top officials.
The previous section prior to this saw a few men taking Youko, Taiki and Risai hostage in Taiki's room. They hurled insults at her and told her why they did not think she was a good queen. Some accusations were valid, others were outright stupid. Youko did not defend herself, she stood there and listened. In "my" opinion, it took too long for help to come, not normal for a secured palace where the queen was.

I really love this book, but if I could critique the author for anything, it would be this rebellion. I hope watching an animated series would help.

Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 1:33 am
by beranda
fragile_bloom
You know, i so-o-o envy you!
The only problem you find with the novel is the rebellion?
I think it's simply the epitome of problems which occure in the novel from the beginning. (the character of Youko, that is).
They hurled insults at her and told her why they did not think she was a good queen. Some accusations were valid, others were outright stupid. Youko did not defend herself, she stood there and listened. In "my" opinion, it took too long for help to come, not normal for a secured palace where the queen was.
You find some of their arguments stupid? How's about the most stupid thing - they organize the rebellion and take their empress as a hostage (yes, you have to wonder where all the guards gone) simply to shout at her how stupid she is? What is it? Kindergatten? Didn't they do it to kill her? Really, that's like some bad hollywoodian movie. When those evil guys stand before their kind-spirited opponents and make their evil point for no other reason then to give the good guys the chance to struck them down.
Remember this famous Sergio Leone western who's mocking it? "If you want to shoot, shoot - don't talk!" :lol:

Oh wait, i've got this brilliant idea that explains everything! :!:
Youko is apparently suffering from a bad case of amnesia - that's why she completely forgets everything she's learned earlier. The proffesional shirei union was notified about the unlawfull exploitation of Kei Taiho shirei - hinman called Joyuu who wasn't given the appointed by union work laws vacation for more than 2 years. Youko and Keiki were forced to arrange for poor Joyuu a vacation on Hawaii(well, he has no trouble crossing the worlds) to learn some surfing and they are to cover all the vacational expenses.
That's why Joyuu isn't with Youko during the rebellion! He's relaxing on the sandy beaches, a couple of cocktails and sexy cheeks included.
As Keiki has caught from Youko the same bad case of amnesia, they both already forgot about hinman existense at all.
Good thing she remembers she still has the sword and good thing her officials are even dumber than she is and instead of killing her start to lecture her about the royal behavior so that all her still loyal retainers would save her royal ass just in time. :wink: :lol:
I'm telling you, all those socialist things...They cause so much headache... :twisted:

Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 12:32 pm
by nightchaser
I was looking at the next chapter in the book and I found a section where Youko and Risai are talking. Youko tells her of the rebellion and how poor her citizens still are, the snows in the North of Kei are really bad and the people don't have adequate clothes or heating for the winter. Risai feels bad about coming to Kei, realizing that Kei are Tai are similar in some regards, and she had come to Kei to commit a great sin by asking for military support. Youko forgives her and promises to help all she can.

This is the passage (Chinese Traditional)

“請您原諒。在您同情戴國的時候我卻在想些罪孽深重的事。可是,那樣是不行的啊。景王殿下是慶國的國主,您無法把對慶國人民的憐憫心施舍到戴國民眾身上。”

花影,你是正確的。

陽子強力地回握住李齋的手。

“我是絕對不會放著戴國不管的。我會盡我所能。我還打算拜托延王也試著幫幫忙……可是,我知道超越天綱的事是不被允許的。我不能對從來沒有經歷過一次好時代的慶國人民說,你們再準備面對又一次的亂世吧……”

Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 10:32 pm
by nightchaser
Hey Yuene, perhaps you could translate this too? :D It's a continuation of the rebellion. It almost looked to me like Youko was testing the heavens again to see if divine intervention would save her... I must have read it wrong. :shock:

快點殺了我們吧。雖然他們這麼講,但是大概這多半並不是他們的真實想法。

不過,因為過度虛脫,無論現在對他們做什麼都會讓他們萬分難受,這到的確是事實。Youko (陽子) 這麼想著。抵抗也好憤怒也好現在都不重要。盡管剛才對於這些企圖反叛的家伙的質問,陽子 大聲的吼道說,自己並不是一個愚蠢的王,然而對於這一點究竟自己是不是真的能做到,她卻真的是不太有信心。如果是在以前,在Youko (陽子) 看來,只要有天命就可以為王。但是,現在的Youko (陽子) 卻再也不能把天意看作是奇跡的一種。她總覺得,即使這樣,也總歸足一件好事。或者,如果可能的話,有什麼力量可以幫她從這種重責中解放出來的話,也是一件好事吧。

“把那些逃跑的人還有他們的同伙都給我抓起來!”

從那裡走出來的時候,迎面正碰上急匆匆趕來的六太。在他身後跟著一隊士兵。大概是因為那些犯人正被押解離開,雜亂的呵斥聲,充滿怨恨的咒罵聲,夾雜在一起,引起了一陣嘈雜的聲響。

Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 10:33 pm
by nightchaser
Hey Yuene, perhaps you could translate this too? :D It's a continuation of the rebellion. It almost looked to me like Youko was testing the heavens again to see if divine intervention would save her... I must have read it wrong.

快點殺了我們吧。雖然他們這麼講,但是大概這多半並不是他們的真實想法。

不過,因為過度虛脫,無論現在對他們做什麼都會讓他們萬分難受,這到的確是事實。Youko (陽子) 這麼想著。抵抗也好憤怒也好現在都不重要。盡管剛才對於這些企圖反叛的家伙的質問,陽子 大聲的吼道說,自己並不是一個愚蠢的王,然而對於這一點究竟自己是不是真的能做到,她卻真的是不太有信心。如果是在以前,在Youko (陽子) 看來,只要有天命就可以為王。但是,現在的Youko (陽子) 卻再也不能把天意看作是奇跡的一種。她總覺得,即使這樣,也總歸足一件好事。或者,如果可能的話,有什麼力量可以幫她從這種重責中解放出來的話,也是一件好事吧。

“把那些逃跑的人還有他們的同伙都給我抓起來!”

從那裡走出來的時候,迎面正碰上急匆匆趕來的六太。在他身後跟著一隊士兵。大概是因為那些犯人正被押解離開,雜亂的呵斥聲,充滿怨恨的咒罵聲,夾雜在一起,引起了一陣嘈雜的聲響。

Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2006 3:19 am
by fragile_bloom
Hi Nightchaser,

Pardon me for translating this! I've posted in another thread asking Yuene to verify my translation. :D It should be fairly accurate. Two people translating would be better than one. I don't think the rebellion is easy to understand. It is not exactly a language problem but rather different people reading the same text can have different interpretations. I don't think Youko is testing heaven's mandate. However, I think she is frustrated and feels very pressured that heaven's will itself is not sufficient to make her a ruler.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hurry up, kill us. Although this was their plea, it was not their true desire.

At this point, no matter what was being done to them will surely cause them to suffer, that was a fact. Youko thought. To put up resistence or get angry was not important. Even if she had shouted at the rebels insisting she was not a completely stupid ruler like what they thought of her, in reality, she was not confident if she could be a good ruler. In the past, she thought she could be a ruler just by heaven's mandate. But then, Youko no longer thought heaven's mandate was a miracle that would make her a successful ruler. She felt that even if heaven's mandate meant nothing, it might not be a bad thing. If it be possible that there be a power or some strength that can help liberate her from such heavy responsibilities, that would also be a good thing.

"Arrest those who have escaped as well as their accomplices."

As she left the place, she met a hurried and worried En Taiho rushing to the scene with some guards. As the convicts who were being detained were brought away, they cursed aloud, creating a noisy/messy commotion full of blame and hate.

Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2006 4:01 am
by fragile_bloom
carmolita wrote:in response to the second coup or rebellion in which enki used his shirae to protect youko and taiki...and keiki rushed back ...I was wondering where did keiki rush back from ..where was he while all of this was going on? I know taiki couldn't use his shera because they were taken away ,,, and i know that enki suspected that something was going to happen which is why he left his sherae to protect them...but where was keiki ..and in response to youko not having her sword w/her...why would she carry it in her own home? she's not suppose to be in danger there..however ..i'm not sure if anyone remembers, but the person who initiated this coup appears in disk five ..he's the one that muttered kaitotsu when youko tried to leave the court......and he also appears in disk 9..quite a bit ..i have a feeling they might animate this if they continue.....
Hi Carmolita, we do not know where Keiki was during the rebellion, he left Taiki's room after a short conversation with Taiki who just woke up from a coma. In fact, it was Youko's arrival that interrupted his conversation with Taiki. Keiki left Youko to be alone with Taiki so that they could chat. I don't see any irregularities there. Personally, I don't think it is important to know where Keiki was during the rebellion.

However, it is unacceptable there were no guards on duty and I thought Youko had a shirei "joyuu" living inside her. In order for Taiki to be brought back to the 12 kingdoms, Taiki was registered as a (sennin) immortal citizen of En. En-Ou had to personally fetch him from Horai because of this. Hence, it was perfectly normal for Enki to send Shireis to protect Taiki but it is strange Keiki said Enki lent Youko his shireis and yet Youko did not seem to know about this. It is strange to have her stand there helplessly angry and doing nothing. It is possible that it was Keiki's shirei who saved Youko because Keiki was the first to arrive. If Enki's shireis had saved Youko, Enki would have been the first to arrive. Enki arrived only after everything was over.

It is possible for different people to interprete the same text differently. This was why I asked someone else to interprete because I thought I read it inaccurately which was why the rebellion seemed so strange. After reading someone else's interpretation/translation, my initial questions remain unanswered. I still find Youko and Keiki's reaction strange. The whole set up of this rebellion is strange. In a secured palace, this should not have happened.

Watching an animated series would surely help, I hope they continue with the animations. I can read this passage many times and have different interpretations. Either the author made this complicated or I read too much into a simple rebellion! :roll:

Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2006 5:18 am
by beranda
fragile_bloom
Watching an animated series would surely help, I hope they continue with the animations.
Deep sigh....From your lips to the G-d's ears! :P
But they can't animate the uncomplete story, even if they want to. :(

I also don't quite get this problem with interpretation of the described events in this novel, but i rest my case. My head is spinning already from the raising questions. Can it be that something was lost during translation from Japanese to Chinese?

Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2006 1:24 pm
by yuene
fragile_bloom and nightchaser:

My apologies for not getting down to the translation earlier, I have been rather busy with my thesis, so I haven't had time to sit down and actually get down to it; plus, I'm also busying myself with a translation of Tonan no Tsubasa (going very slowly, trying to figure out which ones are names and which aren't).

The translation for this passage, while not perfect, is accurate enough, so no worries about that. :D

Regarding Youko's helplessness, firstly, while Enki had left Rikaku to take care of them, apparently he didn't really bother to inform her first; nowhere in the paragraphs preceding that was it mentioned that Enki told her "hey, Rikaku's been told to hang around, so just in case you get into some major shit, just use it k?" Of course, while Taiki was talking to Youko, Enki might have mentioned it to Keiki, as well as his concerns about discontent within the palace.

Secondly, I would like to think that she is not quite the brainless amnesiac that some have figured her out to be in this episode. I do believe she had her reasons for actually listening to the 'grievances' of the plotters--one of which might be to actually see whether they had a real case about her, and I would think that it's pretty hard to ask someone "so what's your problem with me?" if all that's left of him is a head. Plus, put yourself in her shoes: all this while you've thought that what you've been doing is alright, then some comes in, threatening to kill you because they think you're doing wrong. It would be a shock to her.

And as far as the translation of the above passage shows, she is still rather not confident about her ruling capabilities. It's not the same as being pulled this way and that and trying to satisfy everyone; in fact, quite the opposite. Now, instead, she weighs the criticism and decides whether it's justified. And if you read on, she and Koukan have a conversation about whether the criticisms were justified, and she does think that some are. Certainly, most of them aren't. And she knows which ones aren't.

Of course, the plotters' main aim might not have been to kill the queen, considering that it would be a rather big sin for them to do so (remember, they've been around for waaaay longer than her, and would definitely know that for a fact), but rather to bully her into thinking their way and getting the 'lowlifes' (commoners) and hanjyuus kicked out of the palace.

Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2006 3:35 pm
by nightchaser
Thanks everyone! It is going to be rough for Youko to work through the discrimination that has predominated the kingdom. This probably won't be the last time she has problems, either, as she tries to lessen the exclusionary habits of the court and her citizens. Too bad they resorted to violence. Obviously they need a way to petition the court for fomal discussion of grievances. It does seem that discrimination is a common theme in the books. This rebellion may have been a tool of the author to introduce it into a book that didn't directly address that issue.

Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 2:58 am
by beranda
yuene
Secondly, I would like to think that she is not quite the brainless amnesiac that some have figured her out to be in this episode.
You can use my nick! That's all right! :lol: I understand your feelings.
Let me also clarify - i'm not trying just to stirr some sh#$$t in this topic, i try to understand what's going on. I'm a huge anime fan and i like the novels as well. It's just that i find a lot of problems in this last novel and i'm trying to figure them out.
So far - i failed.
First, my problems started long before the episode of rebellion. I won't recount them once again. There i mentioned another amnezia problems.
I understand what you're saying and accept part of the explanations about Youko's behavior during the rebellion. Yes, i totally accept the fact that she wanted to hear the rebells case and she's still not sure of herself as a ruler.
Yes, i accept that she didn't know about Rikaku, and yes, i perfectly understand that she doesn't stride around the palace with her sword in hand.
But she has Joyuu, who before this novel never thought twice of commanding his empress body to protect her by any means in a millisecunde! And here he's totally absent. Not that Youko gives him a silent order to sit quietly so that she'll listen to rebells accusations. He's...simply not there. What? He's out for a walk?
It seems to me from the translation that besides all this stuff Youko is geniually scared (and who wouldn't be). And this helpless cry for help to somebody - it's very unlike earlier version of Youko. Keiki is the one who tells her why she even didn't try to do anything? Why she all of the sudden acts as some damsel in distress? That's what i find so puzzling!
And the behavior of the rebells as well... OK, let's suppose they didn't want to kill her, just to scare her as they certainly knew it's a great sin. But starting the rebellion is a great sin as well, isn't it? And maybe i misunderstood, but from the translation i gathered that they were very ready to use the arms against those in the room. And when they are arrested and dragged to jail they scream and curse Youko - what, such experienced officials expected to get away with this? They expected to get a donut for teaching this girl a lesson in proper leadership? It seems to me by their reaction they expected her to be beheaded by that moment.
all this while you've thought that what you've been doing is alright,
From the anime and from the books i gathered that Youko is still very unsure of herself as a ruler and she KNOWS she may make mistakes and she's not sure that she's doing alright. That's why i don't understand why all this should come as shock to her. It should be hardly surprising at all. Actually fragile_bloom mentioned that Youko wasn't surprised by this. I might be wrong, of course.
The theme of discrimination is a very important one, of course. It was touched upon in the Shadow of the Moon, and it's good that the author tries to continue with it.
Please, don't consider my questions as some enemy attacks or the desperate wish just to be negative for the sake of it.
I'm a fan. I just try to clarify some things in this novel that simply won't joint together with all the previous knowledge. And so far i'm still unsuccessful. :?

Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 12:03 pm
by fragile_bloom
however that is courious about joyuu ..Iknow that joyuu can only see what youko sees but eventhough she doesn't have a sword...joyuu can do hand to hand combat...I know that enki left the palace ..perhaps keiki didn't leave and that is why he arrived first...but youko didn't know about enki sherei because .enki just suspected something which is wy he left his shirei there..
Yes, I don't recall reading Enki telling Youko he lent her his shireis. It is possible, Youko did not know. Enki did make an observation that Keiki found his duties "troublesome". That was just before En-Ou left for Horai to fetch Taiki. Enki teased Youko about her relationship with Keiki becoming close. Youko giggled and I thought it was a funny joke. However, looks like Enki was no joker, Keiki finding his duties "troublesome" will put the queen in danger because his primary duty was to protect the queen. Enki must have sensed the laxed security and discontent in the palace. Besides, Taiki is no longer able to protect himself and Risai.

I think some of my questions are being answered. Thanks to you guys.

The rebels were racists and very discriminatory in their remarks. They hurled a lot of insults at Youko. Some of their accusations were valid and I do sympathize with their feelings. They had expectations of how a queen should behave. Until Youko is able to command the respect from her officials, she is not a successful boss. If you are boss and people working under you strike or riot all the time, something just ain't right. As a professional, I prefer to work for Shouryuu, he is firm and easy going. He does not suffer identity crisis.

I believe they wanted the queen dead. One person dashed at her with a sword and that was when the Shirei intervened.

From a story writing standpoint, this rebellion is still very strange because in reality, no rebels will be so stupid to assume they could get away with such an act. Moreover, such things cannot normally happen in a secured palace where the queen was unless her immediate body guards or chief of security planed the assination. It was very strange that Youko indeed was like a damsel in distress. I wonder want happened to Joyuu.

Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 9:33 pm
by fragile_bloom

as far as youko ..Did she suspect the coup?? if she didn't she was probably shocked...the thing that baffles me about this whole situation is ..that enki knew that their was probably going to be a coup and left his sherei..Why didn't keiki ? After all he had no problem sending all of them to protect her doing the first rebellion...
She and her officials knew from start that the government was still unstable. They expect trouble and was always on the guard. Only certain people were allowed into the inner courts where the queen was. This was one reason why Youko did not think Kei should lead in the mission to find Taiki. Youko's long speech to her senior officials, En-Ou and Enki was about her determination to become a good queen and how Kei was not yet stable. She looked at her own hands during that speech and said how she was still not able to firmly grasp the reigns of government. That speech started very bad but ended very well with En-Ou agreeing to lead the mission to find Taiki. Youko's chief body guard (cannot recall his name) also said the same thing in his conversation with Risai, they felt that the government was still not stable.

It is strange Keiki did not send his Shireis to protect Youko and let's face it...Joyuu was missing. Youko herself said she had no defense when Keiki confronted her for not defending herself. It is also strange Youko's chief body guard did not assign someone to guard the queen. The name of the Shirei who protected Youko was not mentioned, if you read the passage or its translations, it is possible that it was Keiki's shireis who saved Youko.

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 12:01 am
by nightchaser
In the Chinese version Kousho (the big man who is Sekki's older brother) is the one that Risai is having conversations with. He appologizes to Youko for the attack, but she says that it is not his fault because he is not the one with the responsibility of protecting the inner palace. So it is someone else's responsibility. I don't remember if they mention who is (I'm sure they do - I'm just too lazy to look it up right now :wink: ).

An interesting side-note here is that during this conversation he confides in Youko that he would like to go to Tai to help Risai. He changes his mind, though, and stays in Kei when Risai leaves.

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:12 am
by beranda
fragile_bloom
Some of their accusations were valid and I do sympathize with their feelings. They had expectations of how a queen should behave. Until Youko is able to command the respect from her officials, she is not a successful boss. If you are boss and people working under you strike or riot all the time, something just ain't right.
Yes, i agree with you. Youko have to find that balance of being the authoritave boss and simultaneously not to betray her personal essense, that is being kind-hearted and generous and informal (but only within a very narrow circle of her personal friends, just like Shoryuo does)
It'll take her a few more years at least, but if i understand correctly, that's one of the ideas of the novels - Youko learning another lesson in leadership and being the empress of Kei. Um, at least i hope this is the case. :lol:
As a professional, I prefer to work for Shouryuu, he is firm and easy going. He does not suffer identity crisis.
But of course! :wink: That's true. But remember that he rules for more then 500 years and from his childhood in Japan he was destined and trained to be a ruler (his father was a tribechief , wasn't he) and he's a male (big difference in the upbringing, isn't it?). He experienced this identity crisis ma-a-a-any years ago and moved on.
Youko wasn't as lucky and she rules only for 2 years and she's a girl. We know that she has all the abilities but she has a very long way ahead of her to realise them. Nothing wrong with that. Just give her some time. :wink:
carmolita
when you say chief guard do you mean seisheen/konti the bear honju?
You probably mean Kantai - he isn't Youko bodyguard. That one is Kousho (Sekki's brother). Kantai is the commander of the Imperial army (General of the Left).
I think that the reason the rebells has managed to get to Youko is that they are from the Ministry of Heaven, the one which is responsible for the life of the court and the closest to the Empress. That's why it might be relatively easy to manupilate the situation in the inner palace and Empress personal security.
But i think that even if Kousho wasn't responsible for the inner palace guard he still had that responsibilty of protecting Youko - he's her chief bodyguard. He should've been close! Strange that she thinks he's not guilty at all. And a bit irresponcible as well. I think he deserves some kind of punishment.
An interesting side-note here is that during this conversation he confides in Youko that he would like to go to Tai to help Risai. He changes his mind, though, and stays in Kei when Risai leaves.
As someone who finds all this ardent falling to help Tai for no apparent reason a bit strange, let me just notice, that Kousho CAN'T do this in any way. Even if he really wants to. Because it would mean that Kei would interven in Tai's internal struggle - Youko and Keiki would be dead before the dusk of the same day. And it was AGAIN discussed in this novel earlier, so you can't say that they don't know it.

Youko helpless?

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 8:10 am
by Jinx999
I've only read the translated sections I've been able to find and haven't got anywhere near the rebellion, but I do remember a discussion between Youko and Kantai where it mentions that they've been sparring.

This implies that Youko is far from helpless in a fight. Kantai is a superhumanly strong badass.

At a guess, was it that Youko was unarmed at the time? Does she usually carry her sword with her while in formal clothes in the palace?

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 12:09 pm
by nightchaser
Actually, Kousho could go to Tai - all he would have to do is renounce his position and become a common citizen again. Then he can go anywhere he wants.
I'm not sure that Kousho is Youko's personal bodyguard. If his responsibility is the outer palace then he would have no responsibility for the inner palace. It would have to be someone else. But maybe I translated wrong. Also, Youko has become very lax anyway. Perhaps she told her bodyguards not to follow her around? Below is part of the section if someone wants to translate it. The one paragraph is difficult becaust it gets into military divisions again.

陽子 一邊聽著桓魑的說明,一邊返回到了內宮。大塊頭的虎嘯卻縮成了一團,在那裡一直候著,一看到陽子 的臉,便低下身子叩拜。
“實在是很抱歉!”
“怎麼了?”
陽子 眨巴著眼睛,桓魑卻看著她苦笑著。
“不要道歉了。雖然在那樣的場合連一個大僕和下臣也沒有的確是你的失誤。”
“不過,當時也的確是我讓他們都退下去的。”
“雖然是這樣,可是完全沒有任何侍衛,也是下官 的失職。”
虎嘯這麼說著抬起臉。
“不是虎嘯的過失。這並不是你的職責吧。”
保護王,是夏宮中射人,特別是司右的職責。在公務的范圍內,由作為司右下屬的虎賁氏,與此相對的,在“私”的范圍內,則由大僕分別負責指揮。這裡所說的“私”,實際上是指內宮的范圍。所謂“內宮”,不但包括相當於王宮最深處的後宮,還包括分東西二宮的燕宮。正宮仁重殿,以及一直到進門門口位置的路寢,不僅如此,從內殿到外殿之間的這段也包括在其中。而“內宮”的外圍則被稱作是“外宮”。同時,“外宮”還包括內殿和外殿。原本,作為王只能出到作為“內宮”最外圍的外殿,並且作為臣子,原則上,只能進到作為“外宮”最裡面的內殿。
“大僕的工作是內宮的警衛吧。西園作為掌客殿的一部分,那裡是外宮,而不是內宮吧。”
“這倒是沒錯,但是……”
桓魑像是勸慰似的撫著完全耷著肩膀的虎嘯,說:“如果主上完全不讓虎嘯道歉的話,虎嘯也會站不住腳啊。的確,因為西園是外宮外圍之內,所以在虎嘯的管轄范圍之外。說起來,一般情況下,如果沒有正式的活動,王不出內宮。如果要應公務而外出的話,虎賁氏則應隨從擴駕。但是,這主上去到西園,並不在公務的范圍之內。”
“是這樣啊。因為這畢竟不是基於法或是禮典的公務行為。按照章法,像這次這樣王如果訪問的並不是正式的賓客,在掌客殿訪問客人的時候就應該履行必要的手續,但是實際上是,主上並沒有履行這樣的手續。說起來,自從李齋進到王宮以來,就完全無視慣例和法典,而是隨隨便便。……是我的不對。”

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 12:21 pm
by nightchaser
I think it is very easy to imagine why Youko and the other's would want to help Tai. They see people suffering and want to do something about it. Also, Youko and Shouryo get the idea to set up embassies so that refugees can be taken care of easier, and she promises Shouryo that if his kingdom falls, she will take care of refugees from his country.

To be literal about it - there are a lot of Tai refugees in En and Kei. Also, En still has refugees from kei (from before Youko) and Ko and Hou, and now that Ryuu is falling there are more refugees coming into En. Kei is seeing refugees coming in from Tai and Kou. Refugees often end up living on a "welfare" type of system because they do not have jobs or permanent housing. This means that there is a breaking point where you have to decide whether to feed your own people or let them go hungry and share the food (what is left of the food) with the refugees. This is bad news for En, and Kei has no resources yet anyway (she is still building up from the previous queen and false queen). If there is a way to keep the countries around you stable it is better for your country.