Hey, first time poster here.
Im a bit confused about the limits of immortallity for the Emperors/Empress & Kiorins...
I know the part of them being able to die by getting there heads cut off... now to the question "Is it only those spc weapons that can do that?"
If yes, wouldn't that mean Youko would be a true Immortal in our world?(Thinking if any weapon here would be able to damadge her)
Must say this serie is way better then what i first judged it to(judged it on a singel picture...)
Now i'd say its in my top 5 best animes.
Immortal?
Moderator: zitch
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EternityOfPain
- Ningen
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Yoko would have died most likely. From what I can tell touku-weapons can kill however they never discussed what a gun can do. The problem is guns where not in there world so it may stand as an exception to the rule. If memory serves me right regular weapons can kill a queen/king as well if there head is cut off. Since we didn't ever see this happen... I cant comfirm. But I really do think that King En does say something like "if my head is cut off to I too will die" he says this as Yoko is visiting him in En for the first time.Titan wrote:hmm... so even if Asano had shot Youko she couldn't be killed by the bullet... Though i guess she might feel some pain and perhaps get an injury... or what do people think of that?
I have a problem with the whole immortality thing. How far into the government does it extend? The palace ministers? The provincial lords? The district prefects? Their families? Who else?
To me, the immortality contract looks like a recipie for stagnation. It also gives the people no recourse - other than violence - if they get a bad ruler. Can you imagine George W. Bush and Dick Cheney with contracts of immortality?
And there's one other thing. In the company where I work, a lot of the people in management positions have been here for 20 years or more. You wouldn't believe the kinds of deep-rooted long-lasting personality feuds we have to deal with and navigate around. I'd hate to see what that would look like after a century or more.
If the monarch and the kirin are immortal, that's one thing, but I'd think that at some level in the government you'd have to have mortals with limited terms in power. But then again, maybe that's just the American in me...
Any thoughts?
To me, the immortality contract looks like a recipie for stagnation. It also gives the people no recourse - other than violence - if they get a bad ruler. Can you imagine George W. Bush and Dick Cheney with contracts of immortality?
And there's one other thing. In the company where I work, a lot of the people in management positions have been here for 20 years or more. You wouldn't believe the kinds of deep-rooted long-lasting personality feuds we have to deal with and navigate around. I'd hate to see what that would look like after a century or more.
If the monarch and the kirin are immortal, that's one thing, but I'd think that at some level in the government you'd have to have mortals with limited terms in power. But then again, maybe that's just the American in me...
Any thoughts?
Actually, there are definite consequences for being a poor ruler inherent in the system. The whole concept of Shitsudo is the feedback mechanism that the heavens use to warn the ruler. If the ruler doesn't change his way, the Kirin will die, and the emperor dies soon afterwards.BBOvenGuy wrote:To me, the immortality contract looks like a recipie for stagnation. It also gives the people no recourse - other than violence - if they get a bad ruler.
The people *can* use violence to speed up the process, as in the case of Hou, but naturally, a bad ruler will eventually die and another will take his place. As long as he is a good ruler, his kirin will never be struck by Shitsudo and will be immortal. In addition to Shitsudo, it seems natural disasters, plagues, and Youma attacks become more prevalent if the ruler is in a decline.
So basically, the heavens put the full weight of responsibility of ruling on the ruler's shoulders. Even if the people that serve under him is corrupt and he is not aware of this, his Kirin will most likely suffer if the corruption is bad enough to cause the populace to suffer. So there is no stagnation going on at the top of the ruling hierarchy; in fact, for a new ruler, I'm sure that it's a very good idea to go through your ministers and root out any corruption in the system from the previous ruler.
Actually, if you have good, competent people in any particular level in government, you'd want them to actually stay there. That is one of the downsides of limited terms in power.If the monarch and the kirin are immortal, that's one thing, but I'd think that at some level in the government you'd have to have mortals with limited terms in power. But then again, maybe that's just the American in me...
About the extent of the immortality, I think basically the king/queen can decide totally by him/herself who to put on the list of the immortals (there is an official list in each country).
Just as zitch said, the kirin will get the Shitsudo illness if the ruler does not behave.
In the book "The Dream of Prosperity" there are some comments about periodicity of a typical ruler, it was compared to climbing a mountain. The first 10 years are the most difficult ones, if the ruler survives those years the country will most often also survive the next 20 to 40 year. So after 30 to 50 years comes a huge top, that is because this usually is the time for a mortal to die, people that the king knew before he became a king have died and the environment familiar to him before has changed. The king and his ministers look back at what they have achieved during one normal lifetime and when it does not quite meet their expectations they can become very depressed and neglect their duties. But if the country also survives this crisis, the next top will be after around 300 year. There is no clear reason why a bottle-neck appears then, but if the ruler becomes bad now it often leads to huge disasters for the country. But after that no one really knows, since not so many rulers have lived that long.
Just as zitch said, the kirin will get the Shitsudo illness if the ruler does not behave.
In the book "The Dream of Prosperity" there are some comments about periodicity of a typical ruler, it was compared to climbing a mountain. The first 10 years are the most difficult ones, if the ruler survives those years the country will most often also survive the next 20 to 40 year. So after 30 to 50 years comes a huge top, that is because this usually is the time for a mortal to die, people that the king knew before he became a king have died and the environment familiar to him before has changed. The king and his ministers look back at what they have achieved during one normal lifetime and when it does not quite meet their expectations they can become very depressed and neglect their duties. But if the country also survives this crisis, the next top will be after around 300 year. There is no clear reason why a bottle-neck appears then, but if the ruler becomes bad now it often leads to huge disasters for the country. But after that no one really knows, since not so many rulers have lived that long.
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tigerzfire
- Ranka
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- Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 3:47 am
i think it it touki weapons are capable of killing sennin via normal wounds. (being slashed/stabbed in the stomach..etc etc) However aside from that sennin are only capable of being killed via normal weapons if their heads are cut off or they are sliced in half.
The whole idea of immortality isn't invincibility. Its just you dont get sick and you can't die. But that doesn't mean you can't starve (you'll feel it) or feel pain.
Not sure of the immortality thing in the normal world. But i dont believe Youko became Sennin until she became queen, at which point going to hourai is kinda out of the question i'm assuming.
The whole idea of immortality isn't invincibility. Its just you dont get sick and you can't die. But that doesn't mean you can't starve (you'll feel it) or feel pain.
Not sure of the immortality thing in the normal world. But i dont believe Youko became Sennin until she became queen, at which point going to hourai is kinda out of the question i'm assuming.
That's very interesting. Thanks! I really, really need these books to come out in English.Elysium wrote:In the book "The Dream of Prosperity" there are some comments about periodicity of a typical ruler.
Can rulers ever choose to retire? Or do they basically have to kill themselves to do that?
I'm thinking of the situation in Hou, where the citizens had to endure the tyranny of the emperor and the disasters that befell the kingdom because the heavens were judging him, and now there isn't even a new kirin's ranka growing yet, so they'll have to endure disasters and youma for however long that takes before they'll get a new ruler and things can start calming down. If I was a citizen of Hou, I'd feel like I was really getting ripped off.
On the other hand, if there was some way to hand over power from one ruler to the next without all those intervening years of disaster, I'd think that would be much better for the general population.
Yes, they can go to Houzan and make an announcement to retirement, but then as you have guessed they have to die during the ceremony (this happened to the previous kings/queens of Sai and Kei). So in a sense it is a bit of bad fortune to be chosen by the kirins, the ruler is not allowed to fail.BBOvenGuy wrote: Can rulers ever choose to retire? Or do they basically have to kill themselves to do that?
I had the same impression of Hou, but (this might be in semi-translated novels) actually there was a ranka, even known to be male, but Mt. Hou isn't talking about it or admitting visitors. We know this from Kyou-ou griping about it, and she refers to Houki (thus the sex)... it's suspected the ranka got Shoku-ed away, this time to the west -- China.BBOvenGuy wrote:
I'm thinking of the situation in Hou, where the citizens had to endure the tyranny of the emperor and the disasters that befell the kingdom because the heavens were judging him, and now there isn't even a new kirin's ranka growing yet, so they'll have to endure disasters and youma for however long that takes before they'll get a new ruler and things can start calming down. If I was a citizen of Hou, I'd feel like I was really getting ripped off.
On the other hand, if there was some way to hand over power from one ruler to the next without all those intervening years of disaster, I'd think that would be much better for the general population.
If a ruler resigns, or just kills themself, then the kirin is fine (unhappy, but healthy) and can go pick a new ruler quickly. Of course that's no guarantee, since sometimes a kirin takes years to find their ruler, or even dies before doing so, but usually the process should be faster than ruler-replacement through having the kirin (and then the king) die.
Yeah, the design doesn't seem all that intelligent, and really sucks for the kirins.
As for the original question -- yes, could be a recipe for (competent) stagnation. Note the king can revoke immortality as well, he or she isn't locked into having the same advisors. (Apart from the kirin, but those don't go corrupt.)
In practice royal turnover seems too high (given the drawbacks) anyway. Lots of 30-50 year rulers, one 6 year one recently, some 100-year rulers, and then En and Sou at 500 and 600. We're told Sou will soon break the record for longest king -- we're not told how the record-holder died, e.g. bored suicide/abdication or moral failure. Scary to think someone could mess up after 600+ years.
But if you want to live a long time, the trick isn't to be a king, but to be made immortal by a king, preferably in a non-political post, then escape further notice.