Shore at twilight.

[beranda]

nightchaser
I can't really discuss the things that are still untranslated. Just as i said - all my feelings are based on the part translated on Otyaku site.

We need to keep our world "values" out of this novel.

I don't think i ever brought "our values" to this novel. That's what is puzzling. Youko, according to the previous novels, is a very smart, strong and responsible person. Yet in the first part (3 chapters) she appears as stupid, irresponsible and tantrum-throwing teenager. My humble personal opinion, of course.
Sorry, but that's not the point we left her a year ago.
She should know quite clearly that first and formost she's responsible for HER kingdom and should be aware of risk because of not possesing the full knowledge about the situation and making rush decision. She made such a mistake in "Sky at dawn" already. I didn't find any sense of that responsibilty in her dialoge and behavior here. And i know that it was there.
I already mentioned a lot of things that she "discovers" in this novel about the twelve kingdoms that she discovered long ago in the previous novels. I just want to know who erased her memory. Or is it - "Matrix has you"!?

Risai heard that Queen Kai was a Taika

Yeh, i kinda've got her point from the novel. I know why she went to Kei. I even said that i can understand at first her despair and willingness to sacrifice Youko's life for her king.
But she continues to press it even after she was saved and so kindly treated by this same Youko. You know, just as human, puting myself on Risai place - i wouldn't be able to look Youko into the eyes and continue my personal request, knowing the consequinces. Whatever the pain you feel, but taking some other's life for making it go? And now not just some unknown life, as it was at first. Life of a kind-hearted and generous young girl you've come to know? There's something diabolically creepy about such person, if you'd ask me.
Glad to know that she feels guilty, but somehow that doesn't feel satisfying to me.
About En - Risai is the general of the provincial army of major province. She serves directly inder Taiho, or actually, under the king himself. There's just no way she, or Kaei, who was one of the ministers for that matter, wouldn't know about En and their relationship with Tai.
Yet, Risai goes ahead with her plan simply because she thinks that home-sick taika will buy it better?
And i didn't understand why Youko immediately bought it in the first place. I thought that was a superficial and far-fetched plot device. Again, my humble opinion.

I think Risai's plan backfired, but in a good way, because she underestimated Youko's generosity.

Ehr...I'm no sure i understand what are you talking about. That she was forced to switch to another plan by all those rulers? To go and find Taiki instead of borrowing their forces to free Tai?

The fact that Youko's advisors put a stop to Risai's original plan is something Risai did not expect. Yet why? Risai should have thought of that at least... She underestimated Youko and she underestimated Kei's advisors.

Good question. She, as a quite experienced general and oficial, should've known that mostly ruler, especially that young, would still consult his advisers on the matter. And they would know exactly what Risai proposes.

Sometimes the only way to move people to action is throw the truth at them (that is, tell the girl she is fat and should loose weight instead of big-boned and go ahead and have another cookie).

You know...It's not always works that way. You can easily insult people and make enemies instead of getting positive results.
Remember that famous line by Lady Gyoukou? To Keiki?

"Everything you say is accurate, but you have to understand, the accurate method is not necessarily always the best method!"

Again, we already venture into "unread by me" territory, so i don't think i can comment on the whole novel so far.
I understand what are you trying to say and i guess that's the idea in the novel - Here-here, Taika changes things for good in this world and arranges some positive reforms - but couldn't it be done without defying common sense and character already built in the series?

[fragile_bloom]

Risai begged Kei-Ou for help knowing this will destroy Kei. Why did she do that? This was Koukan’s question. Risai felt remorseful later but she continued to hope for help. save Tai at the expense of Kei? Risai must know about Tai-En relations. She is a provincial general.

I really have to wonder if Youko's tantrum is nothing more than disgust at the inability of the other rulers to want to find a way to help Tai. Not having much experience at debate she turns to the opposite - tantrum.

Yes, this I agree. However, the degree of her emotional flare up is not normal. She has never met Tai-O or Taiki. She had nothing to do with Tai.

Also, I believe the opposite of Fragile_Bloom. That sometimes if a truth should not be uttered it public, that is exactly why it Should be uttered. Sometimes the only way to move people to action is throw the truth at them (that is, tell the girl she is fat and should loose weight instead of big-boned and go ahead and have another cookie).

Disagree. I won’t say things I’m not supposed to say in a public meeting. What Youko said was rude although may be true. I don’t think she did that to move Shouryuu into action. I think its due to lack of self control and experience. However, after her long speech, in light hearted manner, she made Shouryuu agree to lead the mission. Her final actions are ruled by logic and not emotions. I don’t think Youko’s behavior is strange or inconsistent with the other novels. Her character development is progressive. She has her weaknesses and strengths. I think her words to En-Ou were regrettable.

I do like Risai, I think she was very brave, and loved her country very much.

Yes, she loves her country so much, she is willing to destroy Kei to save it. If Kei is in trouble, would she risk sacrificing Tai to help Kei?

I understand why Beranda find Shokei’s behavior strange. More than once, she appeared to treat Youko as if Kei-Ou is stupid or ignorant. I want to watch the animation and see how they interpret Shokei’s behavior. They can be interpreted as insult to Youko or alternatively she was doing her job. She is like a secretary to Youko and some secretaries are like this.

[KingofSith]

Hello everyone, i am new at this forum, but as i said in a post presenting myself, i have been a fan of this series since it began circulating on DVD.

I have been reading the translated version of the Tai-En-Key arc and although i am new here, i humbly disagree with some comments. I have been reading the posts and many argue that Youko had a tantrum and all when confronted with the story of Risai, but actually, i dont see it as a tantrum, in fact, it is consistent with 2 important factors in her story:
1) her incredible compassion (bordering into foolishness, that i cant deny) and
2) the political question.
What i mean is that youko from the first has become a reforming ruler, that is what set her apart from the rest. She has already, in a short period of time, instituted the boldest changes in her kingdom, and she had to fight her way to the throne not once but TWICE. SHe is by no mean the typical ruler of the twelve kingdoms and in there it lies her strenght. Of course she is gonna try to save Tai, it doesnt matter if she never met Tai-ou or Taiki, it is in her nature after the events in the first episodes of the series (the "kill the rat" incident). She questions the regulations and she tries to understand why it works the way it does. And thats not a bad quality, if you look it closely, if you see the other kingdoms, they just say "is the way of the heavens" and thats that. She is the only ruler so far that goes outside the box and ask "why?" and that in itself is courageous. Beside, for what i read, it is not that big of a deal what she said to King of En, she just need to polish on her arguments :)
The political question comes to mind cause if you read careful, she is doing exactly what a ruler in our world will try to do : there is an unstable nation, it has the potential to destaibilize {sic} the neighbouring states and the condition are growing intolerable, so she is not thinking like a ruler of a twelve kingdom's kingdom, but a ruler of a hourai nation. Thats not her fault. Of course, i believe that she is wrong, but it shows her amaizing strenght, i dont see it as tantrum, but as an incredible leap from been so low on self esteem to be a strong ruler that had the grapefruits to stand up against the most succesfull ruler of them all (king of en). I dunno, i am babbling i guess...i humbly bow in apology if i did, but thats my opinion...
thank you

[nightchaser]

I see Youko's speech as akin to Gandalf speaking the words of Mordor in front of the council of elves. They were horrified and he was told it was rude and inconsiderate and should not have been done. Yet it had exactly the right affect. Youko is a very upfront person. She is still unfamiliar with how the 12 kingdoms functions and its traditions, and even being there two years certainly isn't enough time to have learned them all. I think KingofSith put it right as calling her a "reforming" queen. She is trying to bring her experiences and her own feelings into Kei, and therefore sees no problem with helping Tai.

I am therefore going to argue that Risai is a lot like Youko. Both see a problem and jump in with both feet without thinking through all the details. Risai runs to Kei for help when she learns a Taika is on the throne without considering the Queen's advisors might stop her or about the consequences (well, on a superficial level she sees them). Youko wants to help Tai after hearing Risai's story but doesn't take into account the teaching's she has learned in the past two years. Risai is desperate, and not really thinking straight anymore after being on the run for 5 or 6 years. She is probably malnourished (which affects thinking - even though a Senin) and just plain desperate. Beyond desperate. (What is a word to describe beyond desperate?) She is a person of action and none of her actions have worked - very frustrating her for her. Youko is also a person of action. She has to get in there and do something physical - she has to fix things and be a part of the action. Both are up-front people and have no problems expressing themselves.

I also wonder why Koukan waited so long to confront Risai with her reasons for coming to Kei. It's almost pointless to ask at that point. Risai has already been confronted by her own conscience, En-o, Kei-O, Seiobo and who knows who else. But the fact is those people understand why she did it and don't hold it against her. True- she won'd get the "humanitarian of the year" award, but luckily everything turned out okay without any fatalities and the 12 Kingdoms has learned a lesson about international aid without breaking the rules of the heavens.

About Shoukei. I think she is taking the role of the "realist" in the story. She seems to understand that Youko tends to wear her heart on her sleeve that makes her vulnerable. When she says that Youko is honest to the point of idiocy, it seems it is not really railing on a friend, but a warning to Risai that not everyone in Youko's court is like that and Risai should keep that in mind. In that same scene Shoukei is asking some very revealing questions as well. She seems like the kind of person that can quickly disarm a person with words. She is very much Youko's friend in this scene and very defensive of her.

[fragile_bloom]

Beside, for what i read, it is not that big of a deal what she said to King of En, she just need to polish on her arguments
you

She accused the King of En of adopting a no action attitude towards Tai, waiting for Tai-Ou and Taiki to die so that the cycle repeats itself with a new fruit on Mt Ho. In this way, En is safe but Tai will perish before a new Kirin is born. Is this the kind of statement you will consider "NOT A BIG DEAL?" Tai-Ou and En-Ou were friends, to say En-Ou is doing this to his friend is horrible. Besides, Enki had tried to search for Taiki but could not find him. En-Ou and Enki were very pissed by her words, I am very disgusted. She uttered this accusation in front of Kei officials causing everyone to freeze in silence. Is this appropriate for a head of state?

Nightchaser said she loves action.....yes, particularly military action. When she heard Risai's sob story, her first and only solution is to send troops to Tai, did she ever consider other options? Yes, but only after she found out she cannot send troops. Youko's love for military action bothers me greatly. This is why I said Keiki's quiet nature is a compliment to her harsh words and emotional outbreaks. Throwing tantrums, may be but I'd see it as emotional flare ups. That in itself is not right......ooop, I forgot, she is the boss, bosses do have the right to flare up!

I still want to see the animation of how they interpret Shokei. Not just once did she behave as if Youko is really silly. This however can be interpreted as a secretary protecting her boss.

Oops almost forgot......welcome Kingofsith to this forum............. Giggle

[KingofSith]

Thank you fragile_bloom, i have been reading this forum for a while i always find your arguments fascinating.

you wrote:
She uttered this accusation in front of Kei officials causing everyone to freeze in silence. Is this appropriate for a head of state?

Well, nobody in here will argue that youko behave as an "appropriate head of state" LOL you have to remember that when she tried to do so, evil things her way came (ministers taking advantage, she been misserable, etc) so like nightcasher point out, she goes at the problems head on. I granted that she was a little rude (mind you, little, i still dont see the big diplomatic fall out in her words) but still, it was straight and to the point. If we can accuse Youko of something, is that she is becoming extremely assertive, and thats something she can improve on. But to say it was a tantrum diminished the character. Beside (and i know i am gonna get flame for this, lol) King En is not very truthful in his words, he said that Youko asked for his help when the false empress was in key, but reviewing the episodes, it looks mor to me that En manipulated the situation in order for youko to "ask" for his help...even Enki told the king "dont force her, let her make her own mind"... so, i guess him and her are more alike that we think... which make for a very interesting relation, story and discussion in this forum... :wink:

Thank you

[fragile_bloom]

But to say it was a tantrum diminished the character.

Which sounds more kind to Youko:
1. Tantrum throwing teenager or
2. Emotional flare up or emotional outbreak of a boss

(2) is more accurate. (1) is being kind to Youko because she is a lady and a teenager, she can get away with throwing tantrums. Nothing wrong with that. I throw tantrums also and I'm not a teenager. (2) is unprofessional conduct.

However, her cutting words cut! Ther are neither (1) nor (2). It is making statements without thinking. She should have confronted En-Ou privately. After this meeting, I gave up pairing the two of them, the age gap is too big. She is not ready. He might be interested in her but not vice versa. Otherwise, the lady won't say such things in such a manner during such a meeting. However, her speech ended off well, like a very light hearted young lady, she made Shouryuu agree to lead the mission. Yes, I like her for that. Nevertheless, I'm not sure if En-Ou would forgive and forget what she said. If you read that section of the text, you would know the tension between En-Ou and Kei-Ou was high. En-Ou cared a lot for Youko.

What do you think of Youko's relationship with her kirin? She giggled a lot when teased by Enki. I thought they get along better than before. I thought that was good.

Nightchaser said: "I see Youko's speech as akin to Gandalf speaking the words of Mordor in front of the council of elves. They were horrified and he was told it was rude and inconsiderate and should not have been done."

hmmm....I have forgotten this, did Gandolf speak the words of Mordor before the council of elves? Can't recall. But she should not have done this infront of Shouryuu and Kei officials.

[KingofSith]

Hello flagile_bloom
I do agree completly that it wasnt a very professional conduct and i guess we agree that it wasnt a tantrum, which it wasnt, in my opinion (and i know all about ladies throwing tantrums, sometimes i feel like a Kirin LOL)
But like you said, even if her words cut, it got the job done, sort of. I mean, En went along with the rescue, which was what she was aiming at... and i do agree she could have been more diplomatic, but like you say, is like when a boss just get fed up with an employee that throws any professionalism out of the window (been there, done that) and it happens to the best of us, even our world's rulers once in a while.

As for her relationship with her kirin...hmmm.. like any good relationship it has to be both sides working for it. I am reminded of the episode when she found keiki in chains, the look of love and affection in her eyes melt my heart (and mind you, she didnt know him all that well, she was on her own for almost the entire arc) so there is a deep mutual feeling. Enki? Enki is the best teacher for those 2 (Youko and Keiki) because he has this air of foolishness mixed with a great wisdom, who better to teach keiki and youko the finer points of "Ruler-Taiho" relationship :) And Enki is no fool, even if he was taken aback by the speach, he (at least as i see the character) understood her reasoning...maybe he even aproved them a lil, who knows :)

And yes, Gandalf spoke the words of Mordor in the Council ...

Thank you

[fragile_bloom]

The book ended with:

Youko said: "....before we can help others, we need to help ourselves"
Enki said: ".....by helping others, we become strong."

Enki is a darling.

Keiki gives me the creeps. Youko loves him, I sense that too. Not exactly romance. Youko does not seem to be the kind of queen who would marry someone else and leave her Kirin to be alone. Out of the 4 Kirins who searched for Taiki, I expect Keiki to be most concerned because he was close to Taiki and Taiki regarded him highly. However, it was Renrin who put in extra effort and determination to save Taiki. I am disappointed with Keiki there.

You don't have to agree with everything I say about Youko, I am about the only person on the forum who has reservations about her. However, I do feel uneasy with what she said to En-Ou. Shouryuu cared a lot for her. Not nice to speak to him like that. She could have spoken with him in private.

[nightchaser]

I've been wondering about Keiki too. He almost seems distracted by something, but maybe I'm just reading too much into it. It is surprising that Renrin put in the extra work - but then there is a reason her kingdom has lasted 300 years. Perhaps because Ren-ou and Renrin are a little more flamboyant that other ruling pairs I expected them to be a little lazy, but maybe in reality they work twice as hard. So maybe it's not unusual that Renrin would put in the extra effort? But back to Keiki - he seemed embaressed when Risai mentioned Taiki's strong attachment to him. Perhaps the previous queen Kei has made Keiki shy about relationship? He doesn't seem to like to show emotion - on the other hand Youko shows a lot of emotion. Oh, perhaps the two extremes are meant to cancel each other out and create a happy medium.

One thing that puzzles me is that even though Enki has been going to Horai for years on his little "vacations" (for lack of a better word) he never found a trace of Taiki. Renrin put in the extra effort (albeit building off the work of 3 other kirin) and found him (or his shirai). What was different? The translation will probably tell us when it gets that far. I have trouble understanding this section when I put in through the online translator.

[beranda]

Great discussion!
Oh mine, it'd be a lo-o-o-ng post.

I don’t think Youko’s behavior is strange or inconsistent with the other novels. Her character development is progressive. She has her weaknesses and strengths. I think her words to En-Ou were regrettable.

Well, i disagree. My main problem isn't that i simply don't like that the author describes Youko as less than perfect. I don't mind seeing her embarass herself, really. It's simply based on the other novels and so well-explained in anime, Youko, while still unexperienced, is (i repeat myself, i know) a strong, smart and responsible person.
At the beginning of the last novel - i don't find a trace of it in her.
She already've "been there -done that". Remember what she's done to Koukan earlier? When she made decisions without knowing the situation just in order "to cut the Gordian knot"? How guilty she felt afterwards? How she learned the important lesson every ruler should have.
But here, it's like...never happened.
She rushes to help Tai simply because she feels compassionate?! WHY?!!!
Yes, i know that she's a wonderful person and has a good heart and went through a lot, but still...Why to take it so personal?! She never knew Tai-ou and Taiki.
Why she doesn't stop and listen to her advisers, why she doesn't even stop to think of what will happen to Kei if she makes the wrong step? She's responsible for her kingdom and people. But this question never even rise in her thought! Don't you find it strange?

So she feels the sympathy and is eager to help. Understandable! But why to jump on her friend, dear friend, whom she owes her life and throne and accuse him of horrible things? She knows he'd gladly help Tai just as he helped her, so why to treat him like an enemy? Yes, the guy needs a convincing push, but you can do it in a lot of ways, besides, it's like she never considers another options for help.
Really, it's like she's a raging bull who've got this idea of helping Tai and runs with it as if nothing else matters.
Well, maybe i shouldn't go into discussion about conversation i still haven't read. Maybe i'll have another impression about it when reading myself.
Right now my main problem isn't that Youko wants to help Tai.
It's that she want's to help Tai no matter what for no really good reason.
And just being compassionate, having good heart and bla-bla-bla isn't good enough for me. Just being realistic here.
KingofSith
Hi and welcome to the club!
Did you read the novel?
Or you base your posts like me, on the translated part and what the others told?

What i mean is that youko from the first has become a reforming ruler, that is what set her apart from the rest. She has already, in a short period of time, instituted the boldest changes in her kingdom, and she had to fight her way to the throne not once but TWICE. SHe is by no mean the typical ruler of the twelve kingdoms and in there it lies her strenght. Of course she is gonna try to save Tai, it doesnt matter if she never met Tai-ou or Taiki, it is in her nature after the events in the first episodes of the series (the "kill the rat" incident). She questions the regulations and she tries to understand why it works the way it does. And thats not a bad quality, if you look it closely, if you see the other kingdoms, they just say "is the way of the heavens" and thats that. She is the only ruler so far that goes outside the box and ask "why?" and that in itself is courageous.

Yes, you're right. And yes, the thought behind the novel is great.
I have to stress, once again, that i don't find any fault with the most of the story and ideas of the novel in general.
Like this, Risai, desperate "beyond the point" rushes to Kei because the new Kei-ou is taika to ask for help. Kei-ou is indeed a great person and being young and taika isn't afraid to make reforms and break the stale norms of Twelve kingdoms, is eager to provide help and calls En-ou for help and through him "wakes" the other kingdoms and ultimately the "international" cooperation established, Taiki is saved and cured and goes back to Tai to find Tai-ou.
This is all good and gold.
But the way it's described is a bit unconvincing FOR ME.
It's great that you mention that amazing episode of Youko killing monkey and finding her humanity after the descend into hateful madness.

I am therefore going to argue that Risai is a lot like Youko

You see, it can be quite reminiscent of Risai's behavior now. Youko was very willing to trade "rat's life" for her own. She was very close to killing Rakushun in order to survive. But then she comes to her senses and later, when finding Rakushun she doesn't feel she deserves his freindship. She confesses of her crime to him, being barely able to look him into eyes. She's open and ready to recieve her punishment, that is Rakushun's rejection.
Risai, according to what fragile_bloom and nightchaser say about the novel, never does it. Yes, she feels guilty. And that's all?!!!!!!! Why not to come to Youko and confess and ask for forgiveness? She'd forgive her anyway, as she was in her shoes once, but even without knowing it...Risai was quite ready to sacrifice her life for Tai and Youko's life as well. So after Youko helps her all the way and Taiho is back from Hourai...Why not to confront Youko, tell her the truth and pay the consequinces whatever they are, even loosing her head? Why wait for Koukan question her (as late as he does it). Doesn't she owe this to Kei-ou after all?
Please, Taiki can survive now without Risai, really. It's not like her life is so-o-o-o important anymore. And she must know by now that Youko won't kill her for sure, anyway.
Or does she do it it the end and i'm just talking out of my...well, you know!

Risai has already been confronted by her own conscience, En-o, Kei-O, Seiobo and who knows who else.

Yes, she was asked (um, Youko asked her as well?). But why not to have the courage and... (read the above)

she is not thinking like a ruler of a twelve kingdom's kingdom, but a ruler of a hourai nation

You know, this is mentioned also earlier...
Let's get some facts straight. Youko is 16-years old high school student upon leaving Japan. She was never interested in politics and never even understood how the Japanese government worked. This is almost a citate from "The sky at dawn". Her father's "gilrs don't have to win over boys" stigma ruled her life there. I'm more than sure that she wasn't exactly following the international politics either and never participated in any kind of political movement or Greenpeace. Yes, she heard about things here and there, maybe from TV and newspapers, but you're talking about her as if she was some kind of political activist or experienced politician or humanitarian.
She was not.
Besides, only 2 years after, Japan is some "fantasy dream" for her. Forget everything about her 5-6 months inhuman struggle to return home and then sacrificing that dream for the sake of her kingdom. No harm, no loss, "it was a dream". Pretty weird, if you ask me.
So she barely remembers Japan at all now.
I'm telling you, she definitely's gone through some brain surgery.
So, sorry, that still doesn't explain for me her over-heated eargeness for "burn everything down i'm going to help Tai because...because mrs. Ono couldn't find another more convincing device for saving Taiki". It's like in those bad movies when you witness the main hero doing something dumb or knowing something he shouldn't, simply because "this is in the script and the director told me to do this".

but luckily everything turned out okay without any fatalities and the 12 Kingdoms has learned a lesson about international aid without breaking the rules of the heavens.

Yes, everything is great, but why do i have such a sore taste in my mouth? So, goal justify the means? Again that heart-breaking scene with Youko - Does living justify any means? Even if you stop behaving like human being?
I paraphrase, of course, sorry.

When she says that Youko is honest to the point of idiocy, it seems it is not really railing on a friend, but a warning to Risai that not everyone in Youko's court is like that and Risai should keep that in mind. In that same scene Shoukei is asking some very revealing questions as well.

Well maybe you're talking about some other scene from the novel that is still untranslated. In the translated part i felt nothing of the sort. The term "idiotic" comes out of nowhere. Didn't feel that it's a warning for Risai in any way, really. Besides, Shokei isn't the secretary and not that close to Youko yet in her work. She's simply the clerk who writes down everything that happens in the palace. Just because she's Youko friend she can't get some important position so far. She'll have to gather more experience so that Youko would be able to promote her further.

[beranda]

When she heard Risai's sob story, her first and only solution is to send troops to Tai, did she ever consider other options? Yes, but only after she found out she cannot send troops. Youko's love for military action bothers me greatly.

I don't think that Youko loves military action. She likes to act! Which is praisable in my view, if not for the same unexplained twist of logic here as i keep saying.
Again, about that precious moment of "finding out" that she cannot send troops to another kingdom in this novel.
Here's a gift from me: Shadow of the Moon - chapter 61.

The En nodded. "If nothing else, remember this. There are three sins a king cannot commit. The first is to reject the Mandate of Heaven and stray from the Way. The second is to choose suicide rather than accept the Mandate. The last is to invade another country, even, for example, to suppress an internal rebellion.

Nodding, Youko said, "Yes, but what about you? What about invading Kei in order to take back Keiki?"

"If the Royal Kei herself stands at the vanguard and leads the way, then it shall be done in her name. In such a case, we are only answering her call and assisting her as her allies."

"Of course."

Any questions? In the same chapter you can read how Enki tells her about Tai and Taiki.
http://www.eugenewoodbury.com/shadow/shadow_ch61.htm

So you know...This is really mind-boggling for me. That's why i have such problems with this novel.

However, her speech ended off well, like a very light hearted young lady, she made Shouryuu agree to lead the mission. Yes, I like her for that. Nevertheless, I'm not sure if En-Ou would forgive and forget what she said.

I want to read it myself, really. I find it strange though that after behaving like a spoiled teenager she convinces En-ou to take her side? Weird. But that awkward beginning aside, i don't think she and En-ou will have any troubles in the future. He's a strong and smart ruler, he's a big boy, he can handle Youko very well. He's sure enough of himself not to be threatened or seriously offended by her. Enki as well. And you yourself say that later they co-operate closely and Enki keeps teasing her as usual. What's the problem here? And i never saw even a hint of the romance between Youko and En-ou, no matter what their diplomatic relationships are. They are just good friends. And friends can have quarrels and heated arguments sometimes as well, you know.
Besides, Souryou isn't perfect himself, as others have mentioned here and he knows it very well. That's why he's still alive and runs the country. He knows he's capable of mistakes and is able to clear his act and admit it. So does Youko, by the way.

About Keiki - i understand that in this novel they have a better relationship between them. This is what i felt from what i read. How he finds her in the garden and quietly and calmly speaks to her without any reproovings and sighs as earlier. This is at least the only relationship that seemed to develop reasonably after two years together and according to the previous novels, after a shaky start they really started to understand each other. Absolutely loved it in the anime, especially the beginning of 39 episode, so delicately hilarious and so emotionally true. And it's the matured Youko, who now knows how to handle her kirin, who takes the charge into her hands.
But Keiki is still the same un-social guy who can't express his feelings as others. He can't change that fast. That's why, i guess, he feels so awkward around Taiki again as once again he doesn't know how react to a different person in front of him.

The book ended with:

Youko said: "....before we can help others, we need to help ourselves"
Enki said: ".....by helping others, we become strong."

Can you explain, please, pretty please?
What are they talking about?
And yes, Enki is a darling.

nightchaser

It is surprising that Renrin put in the extra work - but then there is a reason her kingdom has lasted 300 years. Perhaps because Ren-ou and Renrin are a little more flamboyant that other ruling pairs I expected them to be a little lazy, but maybe in reality they work twice as hard. So maybe it's not unusual that Renrin would put in the extra effort?

Do you mean HAN-OU and HAN-RIN, maybe? They seem to be flamboyant and live for 300 years.
Renrin is nothing of flamboyant in my opinion, according to that translated story of Taiki's visit to Ren. Ren-ou is a farmer and i don't think he rules that much (40 years?). Or i'm wrong again?

[fragile_bloom]

Perhaps the previous queen Kei has made Keiki shy about relationship? He doesn't seem to like to show emotion - on the other hand Youko shows a lot of emotion. Oh, perhaps the two extremes are meant to cancel each other out and create a happy medium.

If you are a man, consider the following scenario:

Your lady boss fell in love with you but you did not feel the same. She became insane because you rejected her affections. You fell sick one day, she gave up her life to save you. When you are well again, she is gone, another lady boss is in her place.........how would you feel?

Yes, i think Keiki and Youko will work well together as King and Kirin. Youko is very outspoken, expressive, direct and not shy. Keiki is opposite.

Nightchaser, I think you ment Hanrin, her kingdom is 300 years old. Renrin is pretty and quiet, like Keiki. I also did not understand a lot of the spiritual matters they were discussing but I think the magic mirror from Han found traces of Taiki's shirei. That was the group's first big break by Hanrin and Renrin.

[fragile_bloom]

Hi Beranda....... Give Youko a break Risai put her in a lot of pressure. She lost her cool, said the wrong things, appeared very eager to get her feet into action etc...however at the end of that long speech, she convinced En-Ou to lead the mission to find Taiki. She did the right thing, she saved Kei from a very ackward situation. Her throne is not firmly established, Kei is still poor with no international reputation, she is new, etc etc. Her long speech spelt out the realities. En-ou did not take up the responsibility readily. He had no choice because Tai is En's closest neighbour and another one of his neighbour is also in a mess. He needs a stable Kei.

I cannot like Risai.

The rebellion was like a wake up call to Youko reminding her she is the ruler of Kei. Throughout the search process, Youko and Keiki worked as a team along with the others under the leadership of En and the lady on Mt Hoe. Like what Enki said, to take all this as a learning experience. The book ended very well with Youko and Enki reflecting on what they had learnt.

Youko said: "....before we can help others, we need to help ourselves"
Enki said: ".....by helping others, we become strong."

[nightchaser]

Of course I meant Han - I'm bad at names (forgot my roomates name once in college ).

I cannot blame Risai for what she did. For two reasons: 1. I am not sure I would have done differently in the same situation and "let he who is without sin cast the first stone". 2. Kei was never in any danger because Youko has a lot of people behind her to stop her from doing something stupid. Also - she listens to them. No matter how obstinate she is she does not pull the "I'm going to kill all of you if you don't do what I say because I am the queen and do whatever I want".

Now, when Risai returns to Tai there will also be hell to pay. Kaei, Gyousou, the rest of the minister and generals still alive will know that there would only be one reason to go to Kei. Has it occurred to anyone that Risai perhaps does not expect to live through this? That she has returned Taiki and now considers herself expendable? She did loose her arm. That must be somehow symbolic. Her right arm... When you steel in a moslem country they cut off your right hand. But this is based on ancient China... Is there something similar?

Poor Keiki... but still, why so cold toward Taiki? He even told Youko that even though Taiki was still young he knew what his duty was and would do anything he could to return to Tai if possible. He just seemed to be writing Taiki off with logic. Of course kirin are expendable I guess. But if kirin are an extension of the people, and kirin are expendable then the citizens are expendable too? If Taiki died then, it would be eight to ten years before another kirin could choose a king. But Asen would still be in power. Also no one can leave Tai because of the Youma. Risai only escaped because she is a Senin. What if they held a shousan and no one came? There are certainly a lot of ways this story could go.

[beranda]

fragile_bloom

Give Youko a break

i won't, i won't! Grr-r-r-r...
Look, all i was saying here...You see, Youko is one of my favorite characters on the series. I know that you don't care about her that much but i do.

The rebellion was like a wake up call to Youko reminding her she is the ruler of Kei.

You see, i don't understand why and how she could forget it in the first place.
That's why it bothers me so much - not that she isn't perfect or makes stupid things. Don't we all? It's simply that her character in this novel, at least in the beginning (i understand that later she's back to her senses again) doesn't sit well with all the previous information.
It's like mrs. Ono forgot to re-read her own writings before she wrote this one. That's the only explanation i can come up with right now. I really hope that when she writes the next one (we can hope, can we? ) she'll be more consistent and will do it with all her heart.
In any case, thank you for your answers.
nightchaser

I cannot blame Risai for what she did. For two reasons: 1. I am not sure I would have done differently in the same situation and "let he who is without sin cast the first stone". 2. Kei was never in any danger because Youko has a lot of people behind her to stop her from doing something stupid. Also - she listens to them.

Maybe i wasn't clear on the subject and my posts were too wordy to have any sense...
Look, i never blamed Risai for what she did. I already said that i understand why she acted that way, AT FIRST. But then...
Let me repeat myself -

Why not to come to Youko and confess and ask for forgiveness? She'd forgive her anyway, as she was in her shoes once, but even without knowing it...Risai was quite ready to sacrifice her life for Tai and Youko's life as well. So after Youko helps her all the way and Taiho is back from Hourai...Why not to confront Youko, tell her the truth and pay the consequinces whatever they are, even loosing her head? Why wait for Koukan question her (as late as he does it). Doesn't she owe this to Kei-ou after all?

We all do shitty things. By how about holding the responsibilities for them? Youko was able to do it. Why Risai can't?
About Kei was never in any danger - this is not according to what Risai planned, didn't she? And what if Youko would've been as irresponsible as Risai hoped? She's the empress, she can do whatever she wants and she is the only who can stop herself, no matter what her advisers say. Everyone would have to obey.
Now, why Risai never even thought that Kei-ou advisers surely will tell her about the consequinses of the military help for Tai is altogether another matter to which noone of us has a formidable answer.
So, let's leave it there.

Now, when Risai returns to Tai there will also be hell to pay.

You know, this is a very interesting thought. Maybe you're right and there's something to it. (her loosing the right hand).
Frankly speaking, maybe after the next novel which should complete the Tai story, the whole story will come together better. Like, we'll see it all in a bit of different light? Like in Star wars - after the phrase "I'M YOUR FATHER".
But maybe not. We can only guess right now.
Really can't comment about Keiki-Taiki. Have to read this one myself. Though it does seem strange. Why to build such a beautiful relationship between the two and then let it disappear completely? We invest our emotions into the characters and then we're left empty-handed?

[KingofSith]

Hi beranda, thanx for the welcome :)

Wow, this is turning to be a really good conversation, well i read the translated version of the novel and also pick up some arguments in this forum, so i am basing my opinions on that and the story in general. I am one of the youko supporters, only because the way the character is appeals to a lot of emotions for me personnally, but i do agree sometimes when things are not right, like for example, i do agree with fragile_bloom that Youko is not a diplomat and that Youko is not a "proper ruler" but she is in fact, the only ruler of the ones we know from series and novels, with the potential to be the best of them (in like 800 years of reign of course LOL) because just now she is starting to show greatness. I say it again, she had the grapefruits of talking like she did to En-ou, i mean, that wouldnt be possible for Youko in the past, but she had grown so confident (now that she have a real good team beside her, Koukan, Kantai, and all the rest).

As for Keiki...well, he is aloof, and in order for Kei to flourish, he needs to get closer to Youko (i dont mean romanticly). But there is definetly love between them, so i guess they could become a great team (of course, never as Enki and En-ou, but close enough :)

Thank you

[nightchaser]

Okay Maybe we can talk about something else for a while then

One thing that does keep bothering me is the way Gyousou treated Taiki.

In the "Shore of the Maze" when King En tries to make Taiki bow down to him, it is Enki and Keiki who come to aid of Taiki while Gyousou stands by, letting Taiki feel the force of the heavens (if that is what it is) preventing him from bowing.

In the book about Taiki's trip to Ren (Kasyo no Yume) there is a scene where Gyousou takes Taiki outside the palace in the dead of winter and shows him how cold it is and gives him a lesson in how the people feel about it. While Taiki needed to know this, to me it is a bit heavy handed for a ten-year-old (even a Kirin).

In the "Shore in Twilight" Gyousou had his "winter hunt" and then did it secretly - shipping Taiki off to Ren and telling everyone to never speak of it when Taiki returned. What do you all think of this? It seems to me that Gyousou saw Taiki a tool to tell him how far he could go with the people instead of how to help the people. Well, perhaps it should be said how far he could go before he is hurting the people instead of helping them? Like, he is trying get as close to that boundary as possible.

So, what do you guys think?

[beranda]

KingofSith

i do agree with fragile_bloom that Youko is not a diplomat and that Youko is not a "proper ruler"

I'll repeat once again and promice to drop the matter after that.
I don't have a problem with Youko's character in this book because she isn't perfect and does foolish things.
It's because her character is inconsistent and her behavior illogical in the light of previous novels. That's it, really.
About "proper" ruler, i think i know what you mean, but i think this is not the right term. She's "unexperienced ruler in the process of learning", but she has all the qualities to be a great one in the future. And if you ask me, i think it'll take her far less than 800 years!
En-ou after 500 years isn't perfect ruler as well and he knows it, he learns along the way as well. But he's great and enlightened monarch nevertheless. Let's remember how he started, lol.
nightchaser
Yeh, i agree, we should move on a bit, as i feel we start chasing our tales without results.
I also wanted to discuss the character of Gyousou. It's quite peculiar, his behavior when Taiki is forced to bow to En-ou. I still can't figure out - i understood that he didn't know about Keiki-Enki ploy. Keiki tells him AFTER the accident. Doesn't he know that kirin can prostrate himself only before his king? He's an experienced official of the highest rank, how could he not? Then why he doesn't stop the game and even participates in it?
That winter-hunt...Highly problematic, isn't it? Shoving Taiki to Ren so he won't see all the despicable violence and for what? Why was it so neccessary to kill all those people? So they were last king supporters and corrupt, so what? Why to murder them? Not to mention, why was the matter so urgent? Unexplainable cruelty, if you ask me.
But in the novel you can see that Risai and Kaei don't understand either as some others. Something very suspicious in the air. Maybe it's all Asen's doings? He somehow put the spell on Gyousou and his sense of judgement? Making him kill mercilessly many capable officials to make the later ruin of Tai easier? What do you think?
In the "Shore of maze" i found the character of Gyousou a bit problematic as well. You see, everyone, INCLUDING HIMSELF, think that he's the most appropriate ruler for Tai and is deserving.
Yes, he's admirable, capable, worthy, wise, couragious, a ready to be ruler. His fame goes far beyond his kingdom. You understand why, really.
Youko lacks so far many of those, even though we know she has everything in the potential, it's simply undeveloped. Accordingly, she never considers herself worthy of the throne.
Gyousou does. It seems rightfully, isn't it?
But to me it also seems as his own pit-fall. His very severe weakness. His self-confindence. It may blind a man, especially a ruler. Remember when he thinks that he's not the chosen one and admits to Taiki that apparently he needs to learn some humility and wants to go to other kingdoms as a mere mortal? Makes you think - how such a great man copes with a failure? Is it a wise step, to abandon his immortality and kingdom simply because he's not the chosen one? Not the king as he thought? He ruled the country for 10 years already, he should know that the people and the new ruler (as he thinks he isn't the one) will desperatly need him. But all he thinks at the moment is about his own ego.
Frankly speaking, and don't kill me, please, there were some moments when i wanted the guy to get an egg on his face. Simply because of his "i deserve this" attitude. So when it becomes clear he's the king - i was a bit..i don't know, dissapointed.
As an example, and i love how there are so many parallels in the world of Twelve kingdoms, let's remember Hou-ou, Chuutatsu. He was also a great and capable man and everyone rejoiced when he was chosen. Remember the outcome?
Or Atsyuu? He was PERFECT! People loved him, he was very much like Gyousou, wasn't he? Everyone would rejoice if he would become the king. Yet the chosen one was the unexperienced, easy-going taika, who wasn't respected by any official of his court. He didn't even dare to kill his father for the sake of the people when in Japan. For at least 20 years he wasn't considered a proper king, unlike "wonderful" Atsyuu.
Remember the outcome?
So who's more suited to be king? A smart, confident, experienced man who seem to be born to be a great ruler, but so assured of himself it may blind him, like Chuutatsu, Atsyuu and Gyousou? (i'm not saying they are the same, but there's a lot of common between them).
Or a seemingly weak, unexperienced person, who even gets laughed at by own servants and noone is especially thrilled when he/she ascends the throne, but who knows his dark side and isn't afraid to look into his soul, admit his wrongs and clear his act?
When Rakushun talks to Youko to convince her to take the throne (i paraphrase) - You're scared. There are so many people who want to become king, yet you, unlike them, understand what a great responcibility it is, that means you're suitable.
In anime Rakujin specifically states, that if one truly knows himself, he would never claim he's worthy to be a ruler.
But this is practically what Gyousou does, even though he never "says" it. And this makes me wonder about his "perfectness". Does he really know himself? Maybe that's the reason Asen could sneak under his nose and make his awful deeds, using this, unknown to others, Tai-ou weakness?
Youko needs to aquire self-confidence and experience.
But Gyousou needs to aquire humility and self-doubt, imho.
Many of my questions are simply left in the air because the answers are supposed to be in the second part of the novel. But it yet to be written, unfortunately.
I really would love to see mrs. Ono's take on those questions and in which direction it'll go. Maybe i'm wrong about all this.

[KingofSith]

Yeah, i remember the chapters about gyousou ascension. I didnt like him at all, in fact i thought he was an evil guy that was using Taiki for his advancement. But after seen some of the scenes i realize that he did have some good qualities, mainly what beranda already said: he is a capable leader, swift, strong and a warrior. And he did have fondness for taiki, that is apparent. It is also important to point out that although he didnt do nothing for taiki in the "bow before En" incident, he did show concern at the "mistreatment", who knows, if Enki and Keiki wouldnt have intervene, maybe would he intervene? we'll never know.

The purge of the officials is rather drastic, but not uncommon. This story, although ficticious, is loosely model on historical facts. Rulers in mediveal times and in China use to eliminate possible threats in such manners. The fact that he send Taiki to Ren could be for two other reasons beside what he explain in the story (he wanted taiki not to withness the slaughter): 1) politically, it could have backfire, only on the fact that taiki was the will of the ppl and to have him condem Gyousou's action is not a good thing for the beginning of his rule and 2) makes think go faster, perhaps he didnt want to use his ruler's authority and ORDER taiki to not interfere, that would take a long of time and perhaps leaked to the population (now thinking about it, he did mention some of this as the why he was doing it that way...DOH !!! LOL )

beranda also nailed it on the head when she questions Gyousou's possible reactions to failure. A ruler that will do something rash because he fails at something is not a very stable ruler at all. That i think separate Youko from Gyosou, in fact, it makes them contrast even more. Youko was always in self doubt, therefore growing as she manage to remedy her failures as a ruler and as a person. Gyousou on the other hand, have extreme (and i emphasize Extreme) self confident, a person like that do not allow himself to grow, because he thinks he dont need it. I bet that he never contemplated been out manuever and never contemplated the possibility of a Coup. And that was his downfall.

In answering Nightcasher's really good question, i think Gyousou, as well as the entire royal court, never took taiki seriously (even though the fact that he was the most powerful Kirin of them all...a Totetsu for god's sake!!! he tame a totetsu!!) and for them his only job was to legitimaze the reign. This is apparent when the traitor (Asen was his name, right??) tries also to get the kirin, (like Joey did in Kei) so his rule could be legitimize. I hope that Gyousou realize that Taiki is more important than just a symbol...we will see.

Thanx

[fragile_bloom]

I also felt uneasy with Gyousou. I thought there is no need to send Taiki to Ren. He is a powerful Kirin. Nightchaser: "i think Gyousou, as well as the entire royal court, never took taiki seriously". Later in the book Shore at Twilight, one of the most moving scenes is when Risai realised that Taiki is now a man and the little boy will never come back.

They certainly treat Taiki like a symbol. In Shore at Twilight, Risai used this as a plea for the goddess to heal Taiki and for the beautiful lady on Mt Hoe to allow the search team to bring Taiki home although he lost all his kirin power. I think they were over protected of Taiki just because he appeared little.

[fragile_bloom]

I was reading a passage from the French translations to brush up on the language. I chanced upon the passage where Risai visited Kaei before setting off to Kei. Just for fun , I tried to translate the passage from French back to English.

She had hoped that Kei-Ou do not know anything about the history of Jyun Tei, she should be homesick for like Taiki she was also a Taika. She will flare up (s'enflamme) and in her fury will send an army to save the Kingdom of Tai. If she takes the bait, Kei risk sinking into chaos and that which awaits Kei-Ou will be the same tragic destiny of Jyun Tei whose army crossed boundaries. But if Kei-Ou dies, the imperial army remains. If Risai could have one detachement under her orders. That she should have this in her head was really horrible.

Youko did very well in this book......She flared up but did not take the bait. Not only did she not take the bait, she passed the responsibility to En. Her long speech spelled out why Kei cannot lead the mission to help Tai. I don't like Risai. She put Youko and Kei in a very tight spot. Why did she ask Kei for help?

[nightchaser]

Great idea guys

I thought of a third reason for sending Taiki out of the kingdom during the winter hunt: If it backfired the kirin (Taiki) would be safe and be able to choose the next ruler.

At the end of "Kasyou no Yume" when Taiki has returned from Ren Gyousou says:
"There are people saying that I am too ruthless and hasty, and I believe the allegations were not all wrong. However I was not good at easing my reign since long ago.... I need you [Taiki] to be my paperweight and soothe my rash[ness]. Otherwise, I will leave all officials behind and run on my own."

On the surface this sounds like he is partially admitting the winter hunt may have been a bad thing. However, in "Shore in Twilight" we learn that the winter hunt is to be an annual event. So it can be assumed that next year Taiki would be shipped out on another ambassadorial mission for a month. So one month a year Gyousou is going to run amok without his "paperweight" to hold him back.

Gyousou is behaving like someone who is having trouble deciding who to trust. The rumors are that there is a general he believes is conspiring against him. However, he does not arrest that general. We assume he was thinking of Asen.

One thing that keeps coming back to me is the travel party that accompanied Taiki to Ren:
1. Seirai (Taiki's "guardian" and vice-lord of Zui province. He called Tansui away from Taiki shortly before Asen assulted him.)
2. Tansui (Taiki's body guard. Left Taiki to his subordinates when Seirai called him to join him for some unknown reason. Yet when Asen assaulted Taiki he was alone - where were the subordinates?)
3. Sougen (General of left army of Zui province. First general sent to Bun province. Later reported back to palace that Gyousou, Gashin and Eisyou (all generals) were missing in battle and attempts to find them were unsuccesfull. Risai later sent a blue-bird message to him to warn him about Asen's attempts at treason - Risai was arrested shortly after that. But she also sent the same message to Minister of Military Affairs at the palace. Why did Sougen not go missing?)
4. Asen (General imperial army. Tried to kill Taiki and Gyousou. leader of coup.)

I keep wondering - if Gyousou suspected Asen, why place him in a position so close to to Seirai, Tansui and Sougen? I believe he wasn't too worried about Taiki at this point due to his shirai, but still, that is too close. These were all men that Taiki trusted almost as much as he trusted Gyousou.

I do not believe Gyousou was under Asen's mind-control trick when he called for the winter hunt. I do believe that Asen covered his bases to such an extent that Gyousou would not come close to the overall truth until too late. It sounds like Asen had been planning this for years. Gyousou seemed to have an idea of who was doing what (he was involved closely with the government before he became emporer so that isn't suprising). It sounds like he was getting close to what was going on, but never could quite grasp it. He probably hoped that with Asen out of the way he could lower the number of Asen's supporters and root out the plot.

(By the way, I checked names this time so I got them all right )

[beranda]

A-ha! So i wasn't the only one who had questioned Gyousou's character!
Makes you think, doesn't it?

I do not believe Gyousou was under Asen's mind-control trick when he called for the winter hunt.

Well, as i said, it's only my suggestion, as we don't know what happened there. But remember the strange behavior of the officials, including the provincial lords who suddenly switched positions after promicing to help Risai? She clearly indicates there was something weird happening, as if they fell to some kind of spell. So, i thought, maybe he did influenced Gyousou as well, especially using Tai-ou over-confidence, i don't think it'd be that difficult. Again, just my speculation on the subject.

I do believe that Asen covered his bases to such an extent that Gyousou would not come close to the overall truth until too late. It sounds like Asen had been planning this for years.

No doubt about that! Everything seems very well-organised and planned. And i don't think he wanted Taiki for himself. He wanted to murder him or neutralise him, and he succeded perfectly.

we learn that the winter hunt is to be an annual event.

Really?! I completely missed it, though i have to admit, among all the Tai situation description my eye went teary. A bit too "wordy" to my taste.
Well, it speaks even more about Gyousou blindness then.
He was so busy preventing the possible potential coup in the palace that he completely missed the real one. He killed so many innocents (in that regard) and let the main snake bite under the belt.
I really would love to see Tai-ou learn some good lesson from all this.
But that's up to the author, after all.

[fragile_bloom]

Well, it speaks even more about Gyousou blindness.....he completely missed the real one.....and let the main snake bite under the belt.

I also thought Gyousou trusted the wrong people. I guess he trusted Ansen. What I don't understand is how Taiki can be injured so easily. If you read the text, there was time for his Shireis to act. Where were they?

I never felt comfortable with the way Taiki chose Gyousou as king. He ran after Gyousou after over hearing the fairies gossip. He struggled to kneel before Gyousou and struggled greatly with his words. He hated Gyousou afterwards and felt strongly he chose the wrong king. Initially, I thought he really chose the wrong king. I don't understand why Taiki, being a Kirin should feel this way. I often wondered how Gyousou felt when he found out about Taiki's doubts.

Enki to Shouryuu: "Do you want a kingdom?....If you do, I will give you one." Confident and authoritative words. Keiki was also very confident when he knelt before Youko and proposed with assuring words.If you watch the animation, you will see Taiki's struggle.

errrr...getting cold here, -15 degrees today and temperatures here fall to -40 in winters. Talk of Winter Hunts! I feel hunted by Winter.